Interview with Donna Butt

Interview with Hope McIntyre and Donna Butt

Hope So, the first question is just how long you’ve been in your current role.

Donna  Oh, a long time. So, we formed Rising Tide Theatre in 19, the fall of 1978. And then, we were a group of us. And then there were two. And then from 1983 on, it’s been me. So, we started in the fall of 1978. Yup. And then we, I don’t know if this is any, any interest to you, but we worked out of St John’s for that time, which is the capital city here in Newfoundland and Labrador. And then in 1992 we started to pursue coming to Trinity. On the bottom of the Peninsula, which is about 3 hours from St John’s and it is a very, very small community and we pursued coming here to do a big outdoor pageant and we were developing it in, partly because there were some historic buildings here and they were looking for ways to attract people. And also, because we were, the cod moratorium, which you may or may not know of. But anyway, there was a huge northern cod moratorium which impacted this peninsula where I live very severely. And they were looking for some alternative things, things that people could do. So that’s how we ended up out here. That was something I was really interested in. And so eventually, make the long story short, we wrote, Rick and I, wrote a pageant, this outdoor play that follows the early history of the place and performs in the outside of course. And then we, I decided to come back the next year and see if I could build a festival. And so, the festival is mostly largely based on work of, you know, that comes from the place, from the province. And I wanted to do it in a place where the land and seascape would be meaningful and would and where people have and in the small community that we were going to be. So that’s what happened. And I came back and stayed. And then, so the building where we now, the theatre that… we built the theatre; we only built the theatre in the year 2000. So, by then we’d been here from 19, from 93, that was our first pageant, to when we built the building because there was no building here. We were using the parish hall and a lot of outdoor space, but there was no building. We didn’t have a home and we didn’t have a building that was large enough. There wasn’t one in existence because like I said, it’s a small community. So, we built that and then that’s where we operate from. And then in the winters, so COVID hit, we only got one in after that, we’ve been doing a political review every year as well, which we tour around the province.

Hope Amazing. Yes. And I’ve been out to St John’s a few times, but I’ve never been to Trinity, so next time I’ll have to I’ll check it out.

Donna  It’s, it’s really quite beautiful. It is truly. I mean, everybody says that not just those who live here. It’s very beautiful and it’s about a three-hour drive from St John’s. And so, when you get to Clarenville, which is on the main highway, then you, you come off there and it’s about 50-55 minutes down the road. And this whole peninsula what, what we call the Bonavista peninsula, it’s really gone through extraordinary growth in the last few years. And it’s, you know, so there’s a lot of exciting things that are happening right here on this peninsula. And so, we’re all involved regionally together, working on a lot of that. But it’s a really, it’s you know, if you go from Trinity up to Bonavista, which is about 40 minutes, the things and all the things that exist along that route are just incredible for such a small area. And then you go around the other side to King’s Cove and Keels and, and there’s a lot there as well.

Hope  So wonderful. Yeah, amazing. So, in terms of your pathway into this position. So, before the group kind of formed the company in 1978, what had been your training or how did you come into theatre.

Donna Well, we have been working, some of us that ended up forming Rising Tide, been working for a troupe called the Mummers Troupe, which was very much a part of those early days. And that work was definitely… had a strong political bent to it and certainly was very much around stories of the, you know, of a part of the culture and history of the place. And that was really how I got about. I was more interested in lots of ways that we were using theatre as a voice than anything else. And I have to confess, I did not train.

Hope  That’s okay. That’s great. That is great.

Donna So I came into the theatre really more from that perspective about the role it was playing, the changes that were going on in the province at the time. The arts were playing a big role in that and that’s really what brought me into the theatre. And then obviously I stayed, but it started with the more what that form of expression could be, because there was very little at that time that came from our own voices. You know, there weren’t a lot of places that, so there was a, you know, there was the Mummers and then Rising Tide and CodCo, the Newfoundland Traveling Theatre Company, a whole series, a whole series of things that grew up around that time.

Hope Amazing. And I think it’s great that there are different pathways into theatre, right? That’s what we want students to be aware of, too. And is there anything that that you feel attributed to  your success, how you’re  able to keep doing this?

Donna  Well, I guess I would say one thing I would say for sure. So, for anybody coming in, it’s having great teams of people. So, if you feel you have something to offer a team, then let people know what you have, both in terms of your skills, your interests, you know, what makes you passionate, where you feel you can contribute. It’s really important to know all of those things about a person because when you’re building teams of people and certainly once we moved to Trinity in ‘93, you’re also building them in very small rural communities where being part of both the community of the theatre, because there’s 45 people or more that are working here in the summer involved, but also being part of the community of the place. So, I would say, knowing, you know, who can function well within a team is a really, really important part of the undertaking. So, I would say teams of people, I would say, you know, never be afraid to surround yourself with the best. And I think that, you know, you got to be pretty determined, pretty stubborn. You got to know that there’s going to be lots of bad days. Not every day is going to be a good one. There are going to be lots of times when things did not go the way you’d planned it. The vision might come together that day or that that week or that play. And I think, I would say now, I probably wouldn’t have said it then, but I would say it now at this stage, after all the years I’ve been in the theatre, you know, sometimes you have to learn to forgive yourself. And I don’t do that very well. You know, you take everything on and you go, oh my God, if only we had the resources to do that. A lot of the things that go wrong often go wrong because of the human resource reality, you know, the amount of funding, the number of people. And then you always want to be doing things that are important or things that you feel are important. And you want to give that playwright a chance to commission that play and get that work done or you want to hire. We’ve we always, always hired a lot of young people here and develop that work. You know, that’s always been a really important part of everything that I’ve done over all of the years. And so, I think that you just have to, you know, do your best, always be willing to learn and always be willing to change, always be willing to listen to each other. And sometimes you’re going to make mistakes. And if you learn from them, that’s the best. That’s the best that, you know, one can do.

Hope  That’s great.

Donna  I would say, these days now, too, there’s so many changes going on in theatre, as we all know. And so, you know, there’s a need to reach out. I mean, we all I’m sure I don’t need to go through the litany of things of areas where in terms of diversity and other things, we have not, we all need to embrace a lot more. And, you know, one of the things I would also say living in a small rural community is that if… I mean this isn’t really so much about training, it’s about reaching out. If you have something to offer, and I’m sure many people do, a company like this one, that you know that you can bring, you really can bring to it, be in touch. Send a message. Send an email or, you know, I mean, the old days we did letters but you know, I don’t think people do letters much anymore. But you know, be in touch, talk about that because we don’t have the, we often don’t, you know, we’re learning how to reach out ourselves and… be in touch. I think that’s really, really, really important because like I said, there’s the skill set that’s really critical, but there’s also the passion and the vision and the desire and the, you know, people have visions at younger ages and let’s, let’s share them.

Hope Amazing.

Donna  Let us know, you’re out there.

Hope  Yes. That’s such a key thing. I think people are so shy and hesitant to reach out, but it’s so important. Yeah.

Donna  The more I think about it, the more it truly is. And then when you’re living in a small area, a small community, of course you’re not, you know, you don’t know everything that’s going on everywhere. And, and so, please reach out. I mean, I would love to get those kinds of, you know, emails. So, it’s not really just about a resumé. It’s about who you are.

Hope  Yeah, that’s great. Is there anything else that you wish you had known when you started out?

Donna  Oh, my God, a million things. I think if I knew, if I knew everything then that I know now, I don’t know if I would have started out. You know, it’s a funny thing, I think, because fairly early on I went into being part of running a company, you know, first with a partner who then moved to B.C., which is where he originally lived. He passed away, sadly. But um, so from you know, if you’re running a company, in addition to understanding about teams of people and all those kinds of things, you’re kind of like a small business person, whether you like it or not. I mean, you have to do plans and you, and in my case, you know, you have to manage budgets and you have to learn about all of those things. So, but for me, I learned it all on my feet along the way. That’s, you know, I really did learn it that way. And I’m not saying that I think there are certain skills around those things that could have been learned also in a school, in a training position, whatever. Right? And so, I would advise not, don’t be afraid to learn those things in a school environment as well. But the other thing I would say, and I, we have a school university on the West Coast here Sir Wilfred Grenfell, which is a part of our university system and that’s where the training, the theatre school is. So, it’s partly an academic program here. It’s both. It’s not a conservatory, it’s academic and they’re doing shows. I was over there two weeks ago to see their performance show and to audition, for example. Corner Brook is about a six-hour drive from Trinity. And so, you know, one of the things that I would say because for many, many, many, many years since the school opened over there but, I have been auditioning there and we have been hiring students from there. There’s never a year when there aren’t students from Grenfell who weren’t working here in Trinity. And so, I, you know, I would say that for colleges and so forth as well, that on the ground experience, coupled with what you’re learning is really important. Grenfell also has an academic aspect to it, that they do do. Like, they’re doing another show now in March. I’ll try to get over for that, the students are doing. But I think it’s a combination of understanding the world as it is on the ground when you’re doing it with the learning within an institution, is ultimately the best way to be prepared for the world you’re going into. I really do. And from the point of view of someone, you know, like me that’s hiring people, it’s also you know, we’re learning a lot, too. We’re learning a lot, too, right? So, we’re all sharing our knowledge and our skills and our joys and our failures and all of those things together. But I do think the combination is really, really critical.

Hope Mmh, that’s great. Yeah, absolutely. And as you’re working with those emerging artists who are coming to you from Grenfell, is there any gap in their knowledge that you’re noticing? Like, do you think there’s anything in the training program that that’s missing?

Donna Well, I think, you know, all training programs operate differently, right? So, you know, I want to be careful about what I say there, because I know that the people running the program like Grenfell, like one of them, actually worked here as an actor and director for years before they were a professor over there. But I would say that I sometimes find that they’re… the most thing is that when you’re working within a protective environment like that’s a small you know, a small, small university, in some ways, it’s great. But then sometimes I think, and these days it’s even harder, where can you push people to broaden, you know, and to be open? One of the things that I think is really helpful about coming to a place that is a rep company right? So, you’re doing a lot of different things. You’re working alongside a lot of seasoned people. You’re doing different kinds of shows. You’re having to, you know, you’re having to work within an environment where there is a lot going on. So, managing your time and so on and so forth becomes really important. Learning to live in a small community. So, I think sometimes they’re not quite prepared for that. And maybe to be fair, it would be difficult to be prepared for that. You know, maybe it would. But I do think sometimes you’re not as prepared for that. And, you know, the other thing that we find a lot here now, we all talk about it. I don’t know if it’s because TV and film and media and video and, you know, and here TV and film is very important, the government is really promoting it, right? We often find that a lot of people really don’t know how to project in the theatre and don’t know how to make their feelings come out there. Because that’s not the world they’re living in a lot of anymore. Right? And we lose a lot of people because of TV for obvious reasons. You know, it’s a, A, it’s got great things about it, TV and film, and B, it’s obviously financially, you know, a better place to, to be, I guess, for a lot of people. Theatre has always been my love. But, you know, and so I think that sometimes they’re almost in their minds training for two things. And you have to be really careful of that, if you also want the theatre to be part of the place that you go. I also think, this is probably not a real answer to your questions, so I’ll apologize for that. But I think, and I’ve been saying this to the folks for a long time, that it would be really valuable to get not like people that have been working in the theatre for a long time in whatever capacity, but also people that are, you know, approaching producing or ADs. Get them to come in to talk to the students, because I think that’s a, that, you know the more you get into that, because, because we’re all going to bring a different perspective. But I also think it’s really important for people these days to understand what they’re going out into. And I think that those kinds of conversations can be really critical. I mean, also, if you think about the way that funding patterns and so forth and so on are going today, a lot of it is towards project grants and, you know, more time working on things. A lot of the people I work with that are here in the summer do a lot of that sort of thing, you know, a lot of these projects and they can pursue a certain… And I think that’s fantastic. I think they need to be prepared for that and how to make that work, then you know, what’s involved in that. The more they know, the more they’re going to be able to hit the ground running. You know, in terms of some of these things. So, I think all of that, you know, the skill is really important. So is the sense of who you are, what defines you and what you want to define you, and also practical things that you’re going to need in order to be able to get to the place where you can do your project. And I think that lots of like.. certainly in my case and I’m sure there are many others would be happy to share that knowledge and have that conversation as much as possible. And I would encourage that. And I said that to Grenfell. I would very much encourage that.

Hope  That’s right. Yeah. And I think that that ties into exactly why  we’re doing this project  how do we use this experience and knowledge to make sure our students can get that. So, thank you for that. I think you’ve had a really exciting and interesting pathway into it. If you were speaking to emerging theatre workers who wanted to be an artistic director or producer, how do you feel they could secure that type of work. Like your model was very about founding the company, right?

Donna Yes. There were a group of us who founded and then I stayed with it. And then we came to Trinity and then we’re just doing our 45-year archive project now, which is basically hundreds and hundreds of boxes of old photos and slides and VCR that were all in boxes at my house so that I managed to cart around with me over the years. I’m like that, I never used to throw anything out. So, and so working with that, with me on the project, I have some of the what I call young people but I mean that’s anybody like, you know, 40 or 35 or so. But they are people that are very, have been a part of the company and so forth. You know, working as actors, directors, writers. Anyway, so some of them I’ve been bringing into the project as we’ve been trying to sort it all out and figure out what we’re going to do with it. And it’s great because they’re really genuinely interested. And it’s, I love it because, you know, we’re talking to each other from, my God, like generations apart. Right? But they, they, haven’t. They know the company, because they’ve worked here. But they didn’t know the 45-year history, right? And so, like yesterday, for example, we were looking at when we first came out here and we hired a lot of people that were many of our major people, but at the time they were unemployed fish plant workers, you know, and now they’re major, major parts of what’s happening in the arts here. So, but it, they were so interested in how all this and then I had to go out and you know kind of craft ways to fund it because we were pioneering the concept. So, there were no natural funding. I mean, you know, that was your arts council, your Canada Council, but so they were really fascinated by that. And so, we were going through all the early, our early applications of things I wrote, places I was appealing to, to try to say, you, although you’re an economic development agency or this or that, you, you know, you should be part of this. You need to understand how we are important to you at all different levels and aspects, you know. And so, I think sometimes you ask me about like not everybody knows, of course, that they want to run a company from the beginning, but it’s, you know, people grow into that as they as you know, as they learn more and begin to shape their own vision more. But I think that, the things I’ve seen, one of the things that happens here is that people don’t – it’s very occasional but very new. Most people work here, for more than a year, one summer. I like having people back over periods of time. And I believe in that. And also, if you’re bringing somebody who’s younger, which is largely what you’re talking about, well, the first year, everybody gets to know them and they do this the next year, it’s you building something else the next time that writer or you commissioned them, because hopefully they’re going to be able to bring you a fabulous piece. We’ve got a couple of new pieces happening next summer that are by what I would call, you know, younger writers, 35 and under. And we had to… this I mean, that’s always a part of our story. But I think that when companies can do that, it’s good for the company and it’s also good for the people working because it allows them to help to shape their sense of themselves more. In Newfoundland and Labrador, there’s a lot of crossover, you know, what I mean is like people are directors and they’re actors, and they’re writers, and that may be in the country as well. I don’t know. But there is a lot of that here. I mean, there are people who come through here that have worked already as a director, as an actor. Now there’s two of them writing, you know. And then at some point they say, okay, I’m that. I’m a director. But really, you know, you can see it shape, that they’re a writer or that somebody acts for quite a while and wants to be a director. So, I think having people with you for periods of time, you’re getting them… some amazing work from them and contribution and they’re probably developing a kind of sense of what they want to do or where they want to go. And in Trinity, it’s a really small community. So, when there are people here, everybody spending a lot of time, you know, once the shows up, there’s a lot of conversation going on, which is fabulous. But I think there’s… I think I’m not going to use the word mentor, although that’s kind of what I’m talking about. But mentor, mentoring, yeah, but mentoring to sort of in a way and suggest that you’re going to teach somebody how to do something, but actually they’re going to have their own things they want to do as well. So, you got to be able to when you’re going down the road, you got to be able to take a lot of, a lot of turns and see where that path going, where that one’s going. So, I think I, I would love to see more funding and more possibility within the funding agencies and so forth for people coming and experiencing time with you and helping to develop projects along the way. And yes, I mean, of course they’re going to be gathering and learning and there’s going to be constant conversations. That’s part of what to me, it’s all about. And so, I would love to have the resources to be able to do more of that. So, yes, you’re learning. If you’re not willing to learn, then no point anyway. I mean, I’m still learning. If I can’t learn. And change and realize that things are in constant evolution, then you know, you’re teaching people in an institution. But in the sense, life is a learning experience, and the work that you’re doing in the arts is very, very, very much like that. So, I like that idea of not like mentor, but more people that are part of the organization in different ways and partly depending on what their interests are. Like, I’m getting up in age, so, you know, there are people I’m working with now that I believe will be able to, you know, commit, we’ll be able to do that job, but they’re not going to do it the same. So therefore, even in mentoring, there is sharing and exploration. I don’t know if that makes sense, but.

Hope  Absolutely. Yeah. And when you think about those folks that you want to kind of work with. What is it that you think needs to be in place when someone introduces themselves to you? Like what are you looking for? You said it’s more than just a resume earlier. You said it’s the way that people reach out. So, what advice would you give in terms of how people can make that approach, what you want to see? What makes you feel that they’re a good fit so that they can really get the work?

Donna Yeah, well, I think in lots of cases here, because they’re coming back for more than a year, you’re getting, you know, to know them and to see the areas that interest them. But I think that there are lots of people who maybe didn’t think would not think, and I’m talking about outside Newfoundland and Labrador now, that might not think to, you know, approach a company, they might think, okay, well, they’re in a small community and they’re in Newfoundland and Labrador and I’ve never been there. And if they do shows about there, am I going to be a fit for that? Never assume that you’re not a fit. And also, as I was saying earlier, things are changing and opening up as they should and must. So, send a, I used to call them letters, but send something that, yes is a resumé, but really tells a person who you are. For me, that could very much result in a job, you know, because sometimes when I talk with people, the personality, the sense of somebody in there is often part of the reason why you initially hire somebody. I mean, you can have somebody who is totally technically skilled, fantastic, you know, as a as an actor or whatever. It doesn’t necessarily mean they’re going to be the best fit. They might fit brilliantly somewhere else, but maybe not here. So, you don’t, and anyway, if you’re hiring somebody who’s starting out in the early phase of what you’re talking about, well, they can’t have all the skills. How would they? Why would they? So, you know, you can do an audition and it tells you something, but it doesn’t always tell the whole story. When I audition at Grenfell, they make fun of me because they do have this audition sheet and I’m always three people behind because I talk to everybody. So now we’ve got to extend the audition time when I’m over there. But to me, I love to talk to everybody who comes in, not just have them get up and do a piece. But that’s me. That might, you know, some people, they want to come in, do your thing and get out. Well, that’s fine. Hopefully you’ve learned all those skills in school. And there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m not in any way being critical. But for me, it’s really the whole person because you’re also thinking about them. I wonder what they’re going to be in ten years’ time. And I think I’d love to find a little more out of that.

Hope  Yeah. And when you’re asking those questions or having that conversation are the specific things that you’re looking for that would fit for you and your company.

Donna  Well, I’ll often, I’ll always ask them, generally ask them, what is it that they want their voice to be and to say? And where did the desire for that come from? And I know what their skills are because I have the resume in front of me. But sometimes I’ll ask if they have a particular direction, they’re thinking of going in, or either in terms of choice of actor, director. Right, whatever. I’ll ask them usually, if I’ve seen their show, because they do a couple of shows per term, you know, and a lot, if I’ve seen it, which I had seen the show when I was over there a couple weeks ago, I’ll ask them about the character they play and you know, how they found that character and how they worked with, you know, and if they mention the director, how did you work with that and what did playing that character mean to you? I’ll usually tell them a little bit, not a whole lot, because they often know a bit if they’re from Newfoundland, Labrador and they’ve gone to the school, they’ve often talked to somebody who’s been here or a couple of the professors, the teachers or instructors know this place really well. But I’ll tell them a little bit about it. And also I often talk to them about what they’d like to bring. I think it’s always helpful to know what somebody wants to bring to their profession.

Hope  That’s great. Absolutely. Yeah. And are there any resources that you would recommend to students or emerging theatre workers, anything that you feel would be helpful for them? To expand their knowledge base.

Donna  Oh, gee, I don’t know. I mean. I don’t think I’d know that by province to province. You know, I think being able to see work is really important. I think, as I said earlier, having people come in and talk and share time, I think is important. I sometimes think, you know, years and years, this was a long time ago when Grenfell, in the early days of Grenfell and the theatre program when it started, that Ken Livingstone was, I don’t know if you know. Ken was the person who was there and we did a couple of co-productions with the college. Now turned out to be very complicated and so and so on and so forth. But, but it’s something I thought about again. Not so maybe like, so we had, you know, actors, seasoned actors and people from our company working with the students and Ken, in both our cases, was directing the show right, because he was also the head of the theatre program over there. And then we took it from there to the Arts and Culture Centre in St John’s. And I sometimes think there’s not enough direct project interactions. And so maybe, you know, we could go out for a week or two some, but not necessarily, but somebody you know from the company or sometimes I think the interaction, even it was a week of workshopping or sharing in something, would be really helpful during the course of the work trip, you know, on the study term, right? I think there’s not always enough, I don’t, I cannot speak for other places, but I think the more of that, that happens, the better it is. And I would highly recommend that. In terms of resources, I think scene work is really important and I think scene work sometimes that’s not the work you want to do is really important.

Hope That’s great. And thinking from the perspective of operating a theatre, is there anything that you feel that all theatre students should understand about how the structure or the operational side of a theatre company functions?

Donna  You mean someone who’s going into who’s not planning to run the theatre?

Hope  Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, often in training actors or designers or directors, they don’t always understand how a company runs and how that might influence how they’re hired or what the challenges are.

Donna  That’s kind of true. And I think I’d go back to what I was saying, that, I think if you’re in a place where you can bring people into your space, and you are willing to do it. And I know here there are lots of people are willing that are, that would be willing, I think. I think the more you can do that, the better, because that’s where you’re going to get an exchange. So you’re going to talk about what you’ve done and what’s worked and what hasn’t worked and what we need to change as we move forward. And then the students that are in those classes, because we’re not large classes here, right? So, there are small numbers of students, they’re going to be able to talk about who they are and what they’re thinking and ask questions. And I think that’s really important. And I think I also, you know, now that you’re saying that, I think I probably go back to another thing, that if students start to identify what they want to focus on even while they’re in school, it might change ten years later, then I think you want to pair them up as much as possible with people that are doing that. And I think that, you know, even if it’s for a week or two, I still think that’s still really useful. We’ve been trying for years to get them, but it’s, you know, I guess it’s all the rules and regulations to do some kind of co-op program because every other, like the business school does, everybody has and a number of people, not just me, but a number of people that are involved with theatre production, you know, in theatre companies in the province to say, like, I’m, we’re still hiring them. So, I suppose at this point they kind of can do it anyway cause we’re hiring them and, and paying the cost. And in our case, we pay for all the accommodation as well. So, but we’ve all said, is there a way to develop a co-op program so that some of them would be working with the companies and, you know, maybe they’re not ready or maybe they don’t want to be there for the whole time, but maybe they could be there for part of the time of a summer or fall or winter season, for that matter, and be experiencing that, without, you know, but maybe they don’t feel they’re ready or that they want to yet commit to 12 weeks or 15 weeks or 20 weeks, whatever it turns out to be. Right? So, I think that, I think that that’s really important. And I guess these days and I’m not the one to, you know, somebody else would be the one to do that. But, you know, how does the rehearsal room run? Because it’s changing so much. How does a rehearsing room run? How does a company run? How does interaction happen? I mean, we’re really in a new world and, and so we don’t, the way the way we did, it might not be the way, you know, or if things obviously change, but at what point, you know, are there certain things that have to remain part of the process? So, I think there’s a lot of room for debate about that, and sometimes I think some of that debate and discussion could be happening at those institutions. Like, I’m sure that a lot of us, that of my generation or even a generation before have lots to, we know, we’ve got lots to learn and change. And, but I think and I think at the same time, a lot of these students have also need to understand something of where, you know, theatre didn’t pop up yesterday. So, where did it grow from and what parts are our keepers and what aren’t, and how do you redefine it so that… because the thing I love about theatre is it is true. It is right there. It’s not a video. People are in front of you. It’s live interaction and exploration, which is to me, extraordinary. That’s what you know, it’s extraordinary. But I think sometimes talking about, I think sometimes, too, we all feel when we’re together, you know, we got to talk about all the successes. But I think talking about the things you didn’t achieve that you wanted to do is also really, really important. So that’s both on the institutions to invite us in for that kind of conversation. But those who come in to also be willing to have that conversation and in what I suppose today would be defined as a safe environment. Right? And, I also think that the opening up and embracing of that which we have not always embraced, we all need to learn a lot about that. So, any kind of exploration of that, I think, is also critical.

Hope  Excellent. Yeah, absolutely. Amazing. And what do you feel are some of the current challenges in keeping a theatre company running? I’m sure there’s many.

Donna I think it definitely to some degree varies depending on where you are. So, you know, in our case, we are in a certain milieu where part of the economic and artistic and cultural fabric of our place. Right? So, I think it’s going to vary from place to place. Um, how your theatre and your company and your team as individuals, how you function and operate and what you mean to where you live. So, in a way, whatever you’re going to try to do, whether you’re young or old, it’s understanding what the role is, how you want to define that. And then others will also attempt to define it for you. So, you have to be very careful and very clear. But I would say challenges, I think resources is always a challenge, right? I mean, how do you meet like, say, in a case like ours, how do you meet all the rising expectations of your company, both, you know, artistically, economically, as a part of the community. As you know, you have a building, how do you maintain that? I mean, how you balance all that? In our case, you know, this is not easy, right? And how do you manage also to be able to have, you know, commission the work to make sure you’ve got the money put aside for that. And then one challenge is, you know, often you just don’t have enough funds to be able to do the kind of development that you would want. So that’s why I like people I know when they go to a project grant, they’ll get sometimes significant money and fantastic, right? So, but then they’re able to spend a lot of time on that project. When you’re running a company like ours, I’m not saying, all companies, not at all, but then, you know, you have a lot of strings to pull. You have a lot of people wanting a piece of you. And I think that trying to figure out how to keep all that going and still make sure that the work has integrity is, you know, it’s a continuing challenge. And I would also say for us, we make this work in a certain milieu. Absolutely, how you reach out now and diversify and open up and make sure that you do that in a real way as opposed to some kind of, you know, you might be thinking you’re doing the right thing and it might really not be, it might not be the right thing at all. And I’d say for me I think when you build something for a long time, then, you know, and you built it up from the ground, then like everybody, young people, sometime the younger or the people I work with, they need to, sometimes open themselves up to understand that it’s not all going to be the way they see it. You know? And, that they’re, finding the balance is always going to be challenging. But equally, we all have to make sure we’re opened up to finding the balance as well. And so, I go back, I think people being able to work side by side with each other of all ages and types and everything else is really where you start to find that. Because you don’t, in my opinion, like I know that I’m talking to the young, I mean, I’m a bit… I’m probably quite a lot old fashioned really, but I like talking to people. I am not a fan of putting an opinion on Facebook. I don’t see those things on social media. They’re often not dialogue, they’re one person’s opinion and then all your friends have that opinion, then all those have a look like mine and nobody’s discussing it and thinking, really. Right? So, I think discussion and debate and exploration and listening are the key to moving forward.

Hope  That’s amazing. You obviously played a leadership role as a, as a producer and a founder of the company. Is there anything specific to those considering kind of going into to leadership?

Donna I would say, here’s what I would say at this point in my life. I would say, really think about why do you want to run a company? Because running a company is not the same thing as running a project. A very different thing. Think about what you want your life balance to be between, you know, we didn’t so much in our day and I think about that, between work and life. Think about, I find today a lot of people   think more in terms of, they don’t think in terms of 12 months of the year, seven days a week. Good for them. So, think about what kind of company you’re going to have and what you’re going to be prepared to do. I would always advise, even when we’ve been wrong, talk to some people who’ve done it, because even though it’s changing a lot now, there’s still some essential things, that remain. You know? So, I would do that. I think also now that you’re asking, that, you know, when we were young and got into all this, we were very passionate. We were driven, the whole group of us as much by theatre, we were driven by desire, as I was saying earlier, to create our own, our voice, make sure our voice was heard, and to do that in all kinds of different ways. And we were quite determined to do that. And, at the time, we, our, my generation, and a lot of my colleagues of that time, were doing it because, you know, we’d also joined Canada in 1949 and when we came of age in the early seventies, we felt that a lot had been taken from us, that a lot had not been respected. So, I’m not going to go into all that. But anyways, creating who we were, what this place was, was really important to us. And we didn’t think a lot about, we didn’t think, I suppose we were like everybody. You never think you’re going to get old when you’re younger. And so, you know, we just never thought about it. And so, I, one of the things that I, you know, that I have some, and I try to, you know, think about and on some of these committees and organizations and stuff now too, think about it, right? Like I think people should be talking to people about that. For somebody, maybe, you’ve not always been interested in what’s going to happen to you when you get a certain age. But if you are and you know, like, let’s start thinking about in nonprofit, we don’t always do this, think about the health benefits and think about the pensions, think about how you, what is going to happen if you get, so let’s make all of those a part of the discussion early on and also make sure that boards understand, you know, what all that is and what it means. I think working in the nonprofit sector is challenging anyway, right? It’s very challenging… because everybody has a lot of expectation of the nonprofit sector, because they always think you’re getting a lot of money from the government, I think. But, you know, it’s very, very, very challenging. And I don’t think this is relevant to, to your work, to what you are trying to do, but when I came to Trinity, when we wrote the pageant and came out here first, there was only a small amount of stuff happening, some of… But the places that existed then or grew up within those next two or three years and then became major, you know, accommodations and sites and restaurants and all those kinds of things, you know, major, important places. They’re handing all that down to their children now. But if you run a nonprofit like I did, or do, you don’t get anything at the end.

Hope It’s a very good point. Yeah.

Donna So you need to, you know, think about those things. I think, um, but there’s always going to be challenges. Always, always going to be challenges. And you’re always going to wish you could do more. It’s always hard, you know, it’s a tough job. And, and I guess, you know, for people nowadays, maybe they don’t see the same security, maybe they don’t see security in either. Like, I think if you ask most people, in fact, they tell you that a lot of the people that would, you know, truly hard finding administrators and people in that side of it is really, really difficult. And, you know, a lot of those people went on to do other things. A lot of them went into government. A lot of great, you know, good minds, good people. But people often go on to other things because I think the quality of life and what you’re thinking about your life as a whole is more thought about now than it was back then.

Hope Uh huh.

Donna You know, like we were just jumping right in and have no idea the distance, you know, how big the golf, how big it was, you know, it was just the ocean. So. Yeah.

Hope And you mentioned boards I wonder if there’s… I mean as I teach students about how theatres run, the governance around having boards is something that I think a lot of people don’t understand.

Donna  Yeah, And I think that there are, you know, I think it would be fair to say that theatre, and I’m sure other nonprofits, profits as well, but theatre around the country since a long time is riddled with good boards and boards that aren’t so good. It’s really been a lot of people over a long period of time often find themselves on the other end of their own theatre company because someone decided they were going to change it. Right? And I think I do think that anybody and I’m not saying all bad, like I said, there’s lots of positive things, too. But I think it is something, that you have to think about if you’re going to run a company now, not so much if you’re going to, you know, but maybe even if you’re not, you need to think about who’s your relationship going to be with, you know, and what’s the role of the people that are in the management of the company versus the people that are the board?

Hope  Uh huh.

Donna And what’s the role of the board? You know, and all that’s becoming more and more, I think, you know, stronger and stronger and more and more issues these days for big… because of a lot of the things that are now happening about workplace and all that kind of thing. So, I think it would be important if you had an interest in a company to really do a lot of looking into that and thinking about it and thinking about what kind of relationship that you might have and is that going to work for you. Is the big difference in running a small private business and a nonprofit. There’s a lot of similarities, but there’s but there are differences because of that board structure. Right?

Hope Excellent. This is so amazing. My last thing is if there’s just anything else you want to add Any other advice, any other thoughts about the future for theatre or anything else that we haven’t covered?

Donna Um, probably. I mean, I’ll probably think of something after I’m off the thing. I think the future of theatre, certainly from where I sit, I think it’s challenging. I do. I think, you know, where I sit in the theatre company like Rising Tide in Newfoundland and Labrador. I think it’s challenging. And I think that how we are going to be able to think about, I was talking about this bit earlier, what is the next, like if I look at this company and think about, okay, how do we transition now? What’s it going to look like? And is it going to be possible to operate it as it was operated when somebody was, it was their life? Because, you know. So, I think that, I do think that we need supports for that, too. Like, you know, when you’re talking about succession planning and all that, you need supports for that. Because a company like us can’t afford to hire five people to be here now just on that side of things. So, you need to think about that if you want them, and this is going to be different with different companies, but there’s a lot of people moving around from what I mean, just the number of ads from PACT alone, people are moving around, right? So, I don’t know that the way companies are going to be run are going to be, I don’t think they will be the same as many of them were. But we need to define that and allow companies to make those transitions and support it and not necessarily, you know the old saying, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, and don’t let somebody come in with a feeling that they got the world by the tail, because sometimes, I think people don’t realize how complex it’s going to be and that no matter how you do things, somebody is going to be unhappy. Somebody is going to want it a different way. So how do we define all of these things? And I think a scattered time of, you know, maybe more institution training is, I don’t know, is bringing some of us together to have a very frank conversation about that, would be a very good idea, you know. But it does differ from, it does definitely differ from place to place. And I mean, it’s interesting, isn’t it, because people, a lot of people who go into the arts are very strong, passionate, independent, you know, like, oh, thinkers, a lot of emotions, most people I know, and yet when you if you go into that, there’s a part of you that no longer has full say over what you’re trying to do. Right? So, you know, I would say make sure you have a clear understanding because you’ll also be better equipped, I think that. You know, to deal with, to deal with things and to also make sure you found how your voice comes out and how you’re going to do that.

Hope  Oh, absolutely.

Donna  You know, don’t be afraid to talk to people who’ve done it because you think, oh, well, there’s no way we’ll do it like that anymore. Well, you know, there’s certain things about human nature that haven’t really changed that much in a thousand years.