Interview with Diane Roberts

Interview with Hope McIntyre and Diane Roberts

Hope  So, the first question – how long you’ve been working in your current capacity. And I guess that would be in theatre in whatever way you want to speak about it.

Diane  Okay. Well, capacity is an interesting way of putting it because it’s always a shifting thing. Like that we’re never one thing. Even when I’m running a company and doing a lot of other things as well. So how would I describe my current? I guess. I’m at a certain point in my career where I think I’m in the place of consolidating some or all of what I’ve learned. Leading me to this point, at this point, you know, which is founding my own company and running that with a team of people. And it seems kind of counterintuitive in some ways to be starting something, I guess, in these times where things are so uncertain but also at the time of life that I am. I’m in my late fifties and, sort of in a place where I’m looking back and looking forward to what the next 15, 20 years might be for me in terms of retirement or moving to the next stage. In some ways, you know, as an artist of colour, and I feel about 20 years behind some of my other colleagues. But when I I stumble into that little wormhole, it can take me down into a downward spiral of thinking, well, what could I have done differently? What turns might I have made? But, you know, when I look back and think about where I am right now, I think about all the choices I made that led me to this point, for better or worse, that led me to this point. So, what am I in this current capacity? I call myself a director, dramaturge, and a cultural animator. And I’ve been doing that for the past, I’d say maybe ten years, adding this idea of cultural animator not even really knowing fully what that was, but it just felt like another kind of potential role that now has kind of found its life force, I guess, in our current circumstances. I think my work has been often done on the fringes, working with artists and with companies that have an understanding of that sort of vision for change and for restoration of creative processes for, you know, racialized Indigenous artists. So I’ve been doing that now for almost 20 years, just working on the Arrival’s Legacy Project, which is what I would describe as a restorative process and remembering, you know, when I was at Urban Ink, getting negative points from the jury. When the jury would not understand why I was putting my energies into developing artists, developing creative voices, rather than producing shows. And as much as I tried to explain it in my grants, it was always one of the things that sort of knocked me back a little bit. You know, the negative response I would get was that as a producing company, it wasn’t fulfilling my true mandate. And now, you know, people are sort of looking to Arrivals Project as a way of, addressing the environment and the culture that we find ourselves in. So, I don’t know if that answers the question.

Hope Yeah. Well, I think you’ve done such incredible work and, so much foundational work, but as I’ve been hearing from many people, there’s no direct pathway into what we end up doing in this industry. Is there anything that you want to say about how you came to this work? What the training was, what path led you to here?

Diane  Well, yeah, it’s interesting. I was speaking with my sister who’s been working with me on communication, marketing strategies and such with the organization. And she well, she helped me go through a timeline, you know, first year to ten years. And I won’t bore you with that whole timeline, but what was really clear was that, oh, just remind me the question, because I think I.

Hope Yeah, your pathway to getting here. Yeah.

Diane  Pathway, Yeah. So that just reminded me about all the little moments that sort of led me here. Some of them were positive and some negative. You know, as I look back at being told as the only black actor in the training program. I was told that I should not even think about pursuing acting because there were no actors, black actors in Canada. And I should consider stage management, you know? So it’s that kind of damaging wound or whatever it is that also led me to do what I did. So, while I was teaching a course at Concordia, I think it was in 2003. I was teaching an intro to acting course as part of my residency, and so I created this exercise, just because I wanted the students to not experience what I experienced. And I knew it was a somewhat diverse or relatively, I should say, diverse theatre program, and that people who were designers, actors, theatre studies or theatre and development students were going to be taking the course as well as those who were pursuing acting. So, I created an exercise using Uta Hagen’snine steps, asking them to research an ancestor, two or three generations away, and to find a compelling moment in time to step into. As a way of teaching them about presence. I directed them to not think about, or to not use any words, just they had three words they could use. They had three objects they could put in the space. And they had to just basically sit in this moment. And it was incredible what came out of that exercise. And they were handing in journals at the time, and the journals were talking about how the ancestor they chose seemed to be somebody that they really needed for now. And you could see them drop into their bodies more authentically. They were walking firmer on their feet, carrying their weight. They expressed all of these healing opportunities that happened in their family just by them asking these questions. So, they saw themselves as artist agents in a way, and they started to see these changes happen in themselves and in their classmates and in their family and intergenerational family. So, I kind of tweaked on to this and thought, okay, this is much more than an acting exercise. And I had the opportunity to teach a course at York University in the environmental studies program. It was on testimony. And so, I used this exercise that I created for the students at Concordia. I used it for them, and I was working with master’s students at the time. So the idea was to embody an ancestor and to really understand that environment, that time that they lived in. And so basically, I met my collaborator, my main collaborator, Heather Hermant. She and I started working together to develop her ancestral subject, went into residency and go Galiano Island. And so, took over Urban Ink and then developed the process from there working with artists across the country. So, you know, it kind of started from this need or this place of a wound or whatever. And it transformed for me into, almost like my life’s mission was to sort of shift these cultural, well I guess shift the cultural gaze for artists, indigenous artists and artists of colour instead of looking out and saying, let me in, let me in, to look inward and say, you know, who am I? And what drives me? And, you know, and to sort of build themselves up so that they were undeniable.

Hope  Wow. That’s incredible.

Diane  Yeah. Yeah so, and it’s been amazing working with, part of the pathway was working with artists that were like minded. So, it was finding the people around you who had a similar vision and just going step by step. Like it started with a workshop and then it started with another workshop and then people started to want to learn more about the process. So, I started to work with a co-facilitation team and I started with, I think, two co-facilitators in the first round and now I have 20 co-facilitators across the country. And for me the process is always evolving. The process is always evolving. I had a meeting with a brand-new group. We’re doing a workshop with Playwrights Workshop Montreal, and just came off of a workshop at Brock University with some students there, which was Legacy Voice. So, it’s those kinds of different aspects of the work and different ways in. But, you know, to speak to the topic at hand in terms of how you advance yourself, it’s really about that kernel of an idea or seed. I’ve been using the word seed a lot lately, but the seed of an idea and letting it grow and that it can come from anything. So even in struggling times, knowing that that can be a place that’s generative and can give you, you know, that step on your pathway that might take you to the next thing and that anything’s possible, any of it. When I started training at York as an undergrad, my parents weren’t, or my mom wasn’t that keen on me going into theatre, so I kind of promised her I would do something like drama therapy. And it’s really interesting that I’m in a place right now, I wouldn’t call it drama therapy because that’s it’s own discipline. But the healing aspects of the work that I do is, is part of that. So, it’s kind of funny to think back to that original impulse or what I wanted to convince my mom. That, there was something about it for me that I always had this vision. I think that in my interview for the theatre program, they asked me what is your dream? What would be a dream scenario for you working in theatre? And I said having an international company of artists that I get to work with and create with. So, I was kind of, I had that right from the very beginning. And here I am. So. Yeah.

Hope  That’s incredible. That’s such a great way to look at it too in terms of that seed. And is there, when you think about your larger career… because you’ve done a lot of things in the theatre. Is there anything else that you would attribute to your success? And it’s funny, when I use the word success, not in terms of monetary success, not in terms of acclaim, but in terms of being able to continue in your field.

Diane  Well, I think it’s the adaptability. Like, even when I was doing temp jobs, you know, working on administration, etc. with government contracts and things like that. But that was all really helpful as well. So even the jobs that didn’t seem to be, you know, that seem to be the off jobs, the jobs that made me question what, how do I call myself a theatre artist when I’m doing this temp job? You know, but that as well gave me skills that I was able to take forward. I mean, I remember at one point there were a bunch of us temping and the agencies would love us because we were the most dedicated and just the most skilled because we would use our creativity in the job itself. And often, you know, I would end up finishing the tasks that were asked of me. And so I’d have time to, you know, surf the internet or do my own work. Sometimes I was, you know, writing on the side or thinking through some things or reading or whatever. So, so those opportunities sort of gave me, and I, it’s funny, I call them opportunities because it felt like purgatory sometimes. Like it was hurting my soul. But, you know, when I look back and I think about how that has helped me in the administrative roles that, or the administrative tasks that one has to do when one is running a company. Databases and all that kind of stuff. Those are all really important skills. But in terms of, you know, different ways. I think finding your mentors as well is really important. I had some great mentors at Nightwood with Kate Lushington and just being able and Ahdri Zhina Mandiela, you know, just mentors who would push you to go beyond what you think you can do. Because at the time I was working with Audrey, I was stage managing a lot. And I remember her saying very clearly, take all the stage management off your CV and just build from there. Because if I was continuing to, you know, put myself out there as a stage manager, and then I would probably get stuck in that. And that was, I think really super great advice. Am I answering the question?

Hope  Yeah, absolutely. And kind of related to that, when you think back about your trajectory, is there anything you wish you had known in the beginning that you learned later?

Diane  Oh, I think it’s to trust myself. You know, I feel like I wasted a lot of time in doubt. You know, the times when I was really busy and I would long for the time and the space to just dream, dream things open or and the money, you know, the opportunities to, to dream things up open. And then I would have the time and the space and the money maybe for two months or whatever. And I would spend half that time worrying about the next thing and worrying that I wasn’t going to live up to, you know, whatever. So, I think, yeah, my present self would tell my younger self to trust that, you know what you know, I mean that’s what I say a lot in the Arrivals process, is trust, that you know what you know.

Hope  That’s great. Yeah. And I know you’ve worked both as a teacher, but also in your creative work with a lot of emerging artists or collaborators who are coming into this work. Is there any gap that you notice in terms of whether it’s knowledge, skills, abilities?

Diane I would say that there are such strong young people coming out now, but I find that the generations that are coming up are not connected to their history. So, it feels like there’s a generational gap where they’ve had to fight the good fight. Similar fights to what we were fighting when we were in theatre school, or, young in the business. And they think they’re inventing that, you know. So that that’s what I find is hurtful and hurt from not only to, you know, to those of us who’ve done the hard graft that got them to the place where they could speak their mind in a way. But I think we don’t, especially as Canadians, we don’t really value our past as much as others and as artists of colour we’re so busy looking forward that we forget, you know what happened before. But I would say that’s a gap. And in a way, you know, it kind of, it’s a shame because it might help. It might help to bring down the anxiety and the sense of isolation people feel. If, and when they know that that we are here, that we are out here and that we’ve been like… that we’ve actually gone through some of the same things. So what ends up happening is there seems to be friction, I think, between the generations of artists that are coming out now who feel that maybe those of us who are establishing ourselves in particular ways, they see us as maybe the establishment or whatever. They are a new voice and their new voices, the voice of change, etc., which is likely true too. But there’s an and. There’s a but and there’s an and in that. Yeah.

Hope  And do you feel there’s anything that universities, training institutions, educators could be doing to better prepare or to fill that gap or to connect somehow?

Diane  Yeah. I think that many of us should be invited to speak and to do workshops. And, you know, faculties are still very white. And so that’s an issue. And that’s what people are sort of fighting against. That’s what they see and that’s what they experience. And then, you know, the professors that are bringing in artists of colour or indigenous artists into course materials and such, if there’s no face or body connected to that, then, you know, we’re just a theory or we’re just the… So I think that that could be really helpful. Um. Or placements and/or placements, opportunities. Yeah.

Hope   Absolutely. Yeah. And obviously, you know, thinking about when they graduate. Number one thing I often get asked by students is how do I get the work right? There is a real focus on wanting to get employed right away. Get into the industry. Do you have any thoughts on when you think about the areas you work in? What, a student would need to do in order get work in the area?

Diane  I think I mean, I think volunteering and being available to artists that, or artists or companies that might be a good fit for them. To be curious to up the curiosity quotient so that they can hang around and be part of some of the movements that are happening in the theatre communities, and that’s a really great way of doing things. Attend shows, be part of the, like, attend panels. And reach out to artistic directors, especially for artists of colour, reach out to artistic directors. And don’t be afraid that there’s a… I mean, people are busy too, so. But. Yeah. And I think, how to get work like that to shift the attitude of how to get work to how to make work, might be a good way of going about it. Even if they don’t… they’re not theatre makers, they’re not playwrights, they’re not directors. How do you start to make work? Because Fringes are great. I make work through practicing or deepening my craft. Find the workshops that are, that could be useful. Yeah. I mean, I started out in new play development and popular theatre. That was my kind of beginnings. And that was a really great training ground for what I’m doing now. And be adaptable. I just don’t think any job in theatre is a lonely job. But be there to hang out, to listen to the conversations too, and keep a journal, keep a journal close by.

Hope  Great. And if someone was, let’s say, submitting to you because they wanted to work with you, are there specific things that you look for in a resume or a letter? What is a good way to reach out?

Diane  Yeah. I think really it’s an interest in the work itself. Like a genuine interest in the work and the company itself. I think, I get attracted a lot to curiosity and to heartfelt curiosity. But really working on your skills, like whatever skill you think that you can contribute to an organization to really work on that skill so that you have something that you can offer. Like I see that your social media is less than I have these really great skills at social media and I’d love to be able to work with you. I had a young NTS students approach me and say, “I would love to work with you to help get the word out about your process”. And so, we started working together to generate some ideas like beginning ideas and how to… this was before the organization was an organization because mostly, you know, we’re running these things on our own, or on our own with a shoestring with maybe. Right now, ALP is a full organization, but we have like most of my team are on 10 hours a week and you know I’m being paid for, you know, 15 to 20 hours a week, but it’s just constant work. So any skill that somebody could come in with and say, oh, I’d be willing to work with this. It kind of gives you a relationship with the company and a beginning place. And then I start to work with that. Then I can work with… part of the exchange is I can help you with your… bartering is a really great thing. I can help you with your whatever. Like I’m working on a one-person show. I’d really love you to read it or I’d love you to come and see it. So there are these opportunities for mentorship in exchange for service.

Hope  That’s great. Is there anything else that you look for in collaborators? Are there particular things that make you continue to work with someone?

Diane  Yeah, I think really, I think if our values are aligned, that’s really that’s another way of looking at the companies that you want to work with and reading a lot about, you know, the vision of the artistic director and also the values that the company upholds and see if they’re aligned. Because if they’re not aligned, then it doesn’t make sense. Like a job is a job. I mean, if it’s a job, you just take the job and you work well, you know, but more likely than not, there are at least two of the four or five values that align with yours. So it’s, it’s yeah. Coming in from that angle as well. Um, I yeah, I guess for the Arrival’s process, the specific things that they usually I don’t, I do lecture demonstrations for large groups of people, but generally the people that take the workshops they apply to take the workshops and I ask them, you know, what draws you to the work. And so what I’m listening for is this call. What is your call? Are you called to do this work? And I’ve said no to a few people, a handful of people, because I didn’t feel that they were ready, that, they were interested in the idea of the work, but they weren’t really interested in or they weren’t really prepared for where the work would take them. So even in that and I don’t even know what it is, it’s in the tone of the letter, there’s something in the way that they speak about it. That, for me you have to be at this kind of place where that questioning is alive in you. So that you can actually do, because the process is really demanding and the group really needs to be aligned, like the values within the group and the needs within the group need to be aligned so that… there are people coming from different ideas or, or different starting points or whatever.

Hope  Absolutely. Yeah. That makes complete sense. And are there any resources that you would recommend to students or emerging theatre workers?

Diane  I’ve been reading a book lately. It’s by, I think it’s Vanessa Machado de Oliveira. Um, called Hospicing Modernity. It’s a really interesting book about kind of placing oneself in relationship to modernity and what that means. And I don’t know if that’s a resource for upcoming theatre workers. But it feels to me to be an important resource for understanding the times we’re in. And what that means, because, you know, we talk about decolonization and we talk about it a lot in our community now it’s become the new buzzword. But what does that really mean? And what is our personal stake and understanding of that? What I like about that particular book is, you kind of have to place yourself the way that she sort of organizes it. So that was just the first thing that popped into my head. From a practical point of view. I mean, it depends on what they want to come in doing. I don’t know for, you know, general managers, that is such a skill that’s needed in our community right now. Administrators, general managers who are dedicated to that as, really, an artistic discipline. Because not everybody can do that. Not everybody has the skills, but also the will. So, I wonder if there are any texts around that. But, to find the people in your community who are really extraordinary administrators and work with them, even if it’s not what you want to do. Ultimately, I think every aspiring artistic director should learn with a great administrator and work with a great administrator. Yeah. And there’s lots of, I guess, things that come to mind around critical studies, like how – but yeah, I think that book, Hospicing Modernity, it feels like a reckoning, like, that that’s about dealing with the reckoning that we’re in right now.

Hope  Yes. Yeah. Amazing. And just to segue into that difference between being a freelance artist and running a company or being employed by a company, what are the challenges or things that you would say in regards to that choice that students sometimes make? Should I just continue to freelance or should I form a company or run a company?

Diane  I mean, look. The (arts) councils kind of make us form companies. Some of them, you know, because as a collective or a company… I mean, I would say that you don’t have to register your company. You don’t have to do the whole board thing. Having a collective, and that seems to be something that councils have now, really and even Canadian Heritage, they’re more open now to groups and collectives and such. But I think that’s a better way of going than to form your company and to get a board and you know all that stuff because all that stuff really bogs you down. And as you work with a group of people, I mean, like I was telling you that I’m working with my sister Joanne, who has really helped to define values, to find like even before we have the mission and vision and mandate. How do you understand yourselves as a group, as a collective? What is it that you really want? What kind of change do you want to see in the world? So it’s all that kind of visioning and such that has to happen on a continual basis, really, even when you’re working with a collective of people. But to ensure that you’re, you know, is this right? But should we be doing this? But I’d say both ends like go for jobs and if there’s a project or if there’s something that you want to do that you love to do, find the artists that are aligned with you and work together. Because, you know, we tend to sort of isolate ourselves and we all think that we’re the only one that’s not working and we’re the only one that’s struggling. But having those opportunities to, sort of come together and dream together I think is really important.

Hope  Absolutely. Yeah. And is there anything that you feel theatre students should know about how theatres operate. I’m hoping changes are happening as well to the structure that has become the default in the past in Canadian theatre. But are there things that you feel they should be aware of about what it means to have a company, to run a company, the board structure, all those things?

Diane  Yeah, I mean. Things like I said, things are changing in that the councils are really more open to ad hoc groups and ensembles. I think it’s good to find a mentoring company, like companies are also looking now for the fresh blood and the fresh ideas. And if you have something that you feel aligns… like this thing of alignment is so important, aligns with the company then you might say, can we hang out or can there be a partnership? Or we’re developing the show and you’re not asking them to produce it, but you’re asking them to mentor you, to be part of that collective. And lots of companies have that in their mandate to nurture new emerging companies, new emerging artists and such. So, if you have an idea that you want to cultivate, find the company that is interested in cultivating that idea. I know it’s provincially or regionally; it shifts depending on what…, but I’m thinking of the Ontario model where they have the recommender grants, where the Ontario Arts Council gives companies an amount of money to distribute within the community, and that money is earmarked for distribution. And so, artists can apply to the companies rather than applying to the Council. So, this is a step in the process. And although other provinces may not have that earmarked money, I think that there’s always that kind of development fund, and to have a conversation with people and I think there’s always artists, I’m thinking of dramaturgs, you know, there’s lots of dramaturgs out there. Trained and untrained dramaturgs are looking for ways to hone their skills as well. So, you know, again, you have to find the right alignment because that could go in a different way for people. But the way companies work, board structures and such, I think there’s a shift happening right now where the models that have been sort of inherited are being pushed back against. So some companies like our company, we’re in a, I think we have a capacity building grant right now to work with consultants to look at how can the values of Arrival’s Legacy Project be also filtered into the organizational structure? Do we have to do that, you know, tried and true structure of board, general manager, artistic director, or is there something else? Is there another way of working? I’ve been working with a company called Pangea World Theater and Art2Action. They’re two companies in different parts of the US that are collaborating on new models of partnerships so that they have a training institute, national institute for directing and ensemble creation, and they bring together directors from across the country together to work together and to study and to develop our practice. And mostly racialized Indigenous directors. And it’s that kind of thing that I think is kind of healing and pushing against like those kinds of new kinds of partnerships. So it’s a really sort of keep your ear to the ground, to some of the conversations like that goes back to attending the panels. And, you know, there’s some really great organizations out there that are pushing the questions like pushing forward the questions around leadership around how we work together. Yeah, around partnerships. Around, um yeah. How we support each other, but also how we push each other, you know?

Hope  Yeah, that’s great. And is there anything that you would advise or want to say about the kind of trajectory that often happens in  joining Canadian Actors Equity Association. A lot of students are asking as a director or as an actor or a stage manager – should I join, when should I join? And about that kind of institutional model.

Diane  Yeah. I mean, I think that’s all sort of shifting as well. Yeah, I mean, Equity has had to sort of pivot and allow for multiple ways of doing the work. So, I’m not sure if it’s as much an issue now as a young artist should I join Equity or should I not? Because I think there’s much more flexibility around that. And to tell you the truth, I haven’t really followed what the shifts are that they’re making. Just because I don’t work in that milieu, like I’ve just chosen not to be part of PACT, and not to be part of that, just because I find it a distraction. But that’s just me, I think. And why then, I am an Equity artist, because it gives me more stability around, you know, the types of work. When I’m hired as a director, there’s a certain level. And then I know how, I know that I am, I have an organization behind me that will ensure that I’m being treated well, etc… So, I am glad that I’m an Equity artist. I became an Equity artist, I guess, in my twenties. It was pretty early on in my career as a stage manager, because at that time it was necessary, and they were making concessions as well for artists of colour. So, I think you had to have six credits to get an Equity contract and I only had to have three. Stage management, I think as a stage manager, it’s probably a good idea to be Equity. As an actor, maybe not so much, right away. But, if it’s offered, take it.

Hope And are there any circumstances, like when you think of your past experiences, where you would recommend saying no to a job or flags that students should be careful of to make sure that they’re being protected and kept healthy and all those things.

Diane  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a lot of opportunistic folks now who are trying to do things that they think are in line with some of the, you know, priorities, let’s say, that are cropping up. So, some councils are saying you must have more diversity in your shows and things like that. So, there are some, I think, artistic directors that might be not as fully on board with what that means. So, might get yourself hired into the company that isn’t necessarily as informed or, dare I say, interested in learning about the deeper meanings of what it means to be an artist of colour. And I’ve heard lots of stories from people where, you know, the kind of thing that we have to do as artists of colour, the kind of things that we have to do to learn about the dominant culture is not reciprocated. And so, we’re asked to just be universal or normalized or whatever. And that can be damaging. But like I said, you know, those moments in your career can be really generative as long as you know what you’re getting into. If you want to do that show because you really love that part and you have questions about the director, then you have to figure out how you’re going to navigate and protect yourself within that milieu and know that it’s another learning opportunity for you to move to the next stage. But. Yeah, I mean, there is that, and other, I think I’ll just come back to looking at the… but, you know, money is a thing too you know, it’s a role and yeah. Or, a role, even a role in an organization. You know, people are being hired to do diversity-ish things, you know, in organizations. An equity officer or whatever and blah, blah, blah. But really, to question what does this mean and to set your own boundaries around what you can and can’t do. And what you need in place. Like if you’re the only one and say, well, I need somebody to work with another person of colour to work with, or I need to make sure that I you know, I’m not the only brown face in the room. Or like, just to know what you need and to negotiate that because those skills that you bring are really, really deep skills, like the life skills that we’ve learned as artists of colour, are really deep and valuable skills. So, to value that and to negotiate what that means.

Hope  Excellent. Yeah. Any other advice that you would give to emerging artists or those leaving school, entering the profession?

Diane  Oh. Oh, let’s see. I mean, I would say keep hope alive. That’s cliché.  Keep hope alive. Or, and, be adaptable. Like, just know that you’re walking into a business that is also recovering at this time, recovering and in flux. So, there are actually opportunities, that are between the cracks. And to keep your, like, to be innovative, I guess, about how you might want to navigate those cracks. And, and to be… yeah, curiosity I think like just open up that curiosity with every interaction that you have, um, because curiosity will get you through any of the barriers that might come up, you know, whether it’s curious about why, you know, somebody wants you to come in and be their diversity officer, you just came out of school, you know, or whatever, because people are, like, what is it that you need? What can I give? But also what, why me or just.

Hope  Asking questions. Yeah.

Diane  Asking questions, yeah. And – yeah.

Hope  Great. And, you know, I always like to end by talking about the future. And you’ve kind of alluded to that already in this time that we’re in. But is there anything that you feel we should be working towards or things that students should be ready or aware of that you feel are coming down the line for the theatre milieu?

Diane  Well, I think, change like just that the structures are really rattling. Like the tried-and-true structures are rattling so, to really, I guess that idea of like finding the cracks and being able to… yeah, I would say to anticipate that we’re a community that’s recovering itself. And that it will make for these great opportunities for growth and for new voices to be heard. And I think to connect to your past, like to connect to the artists that have come before you and to connect to some of those questions that we’re being asked or that have already been asked, and to connect yourself to that. So connect I guess. Connect yourself to that and not to isolate oneself or to go in with a chip on one shoulder, that’s… I used to be told all the time, but that this idea of, you know, if I don’t do something, nobody’s going to do it. Like, that’s not not even a peaceful way of entering into something, but it’s just that you have this energy and this life and this new kind of perspective coming out of school. And to kind of meet people where they’re at. Because a lot of us are exhausted too. So, how do you come in and feed the fire, that’s it – like feed the fire rather than make new fires or, or not rather than, as well as make new fire. So, and it’s that adaptability that I think is really important.

Hope  Absolutely.

Diane  And be clear about your own values as well. Maybe that’s a really good thing for people to define. I used to do an exercise with my young artists asking them to write a manifesto. You know, who am I as this person moving out into the business and, and what can I give? What can I offer? What do I want? But, you know, I find students come out saying, what do I want? What do I want, what do I want. But, what can I give? I think is a wonderful way to open up relationships.

Hope  I love that. Yeah, that’s incredible because I think  there is a constant… I think it’s get taught… let’s go out and –

Diane  Yeah. Make it. And you know that’s an old paradigm now. It’s like, yeah. It really is about relationships, it’s about making relationships. And I think if that’s people’s focus that they’ll go really far. Maybe that is the last word. Yeah. Then they’ll go really far just because, that’s what we’re craving is these relationships. So, I’m thinking of myself and the artists that I bring in. I’ve been working with artists for over 20 years now, and people stick with us or, you know, circle back and go off and do their own thing and come back. And that it’s, yeah.

Hope  Well, those relationships create a connection. Community. Yeah.

Diane Yes. Mmmmh.

Hope Wonderful. This is amazing. I love that. That it also takes us out of, like you said, the paradigm. I always battle with do we teach them the way it has been or are we teaching them to be able to come out and build on the amazing change that others have begun already. Right? So this is really good to have your wisdom and perspective on that. Is there anything else that you want to add that I haven’t covered?

Diane Well, what you just said is really interesting. Teaching them what has been or teaching them, you know, the change that’s afoot. And I think, both in the sense that they need to know what those established structures still are, you know, and still are very much embedded. But also you know, what those factors of change have been. And how they manifested in this, what you’re doing right now, this book and talking to I’m sure you’re talking to some amazing people across the gamut. But just how these vectors of change have influenced or reshaped, you know, how they establish, the establishment has established itself. Like, the NAC is a perfect example of that. You know, with Kevin going in as the Indigenous and now it’s being led by Nina Lee Aquino. You know, how did that happen and what was Nina’s trajectory? I’m sure you…

Hope  Yeah, I got to speak to Nina last week.

Diane  Yeah, from Carlos Bulosan Theatre all the way to the National Arts Centre and what that meant for her. And Obsidian Theatre, the founding of that and, you know. Yeah. And, and Soulpepper now, you know, run by Weyni Mengesha and what that means like it’s, I can’t wait to read the book.