Interview with Haanita Seval
Interview with Hope McIntyre and Haanita Seval
Hope So yeah, the first question is how long have you worked in your current role?
Haanita Current role? A little over 20 years.
Hope I didn’t even know that. That is amazing. Excellent. And in terms of the pathway you took into that position, like training? How did you end up there?
Haanita Well, totally nontraditionally. In 1985, I was looking for a different job from what I had. And I’d always been interested in theatre. I originally wanted to be on the stage, but I went through some theatre at University of Winnipeg and did some auditions and realized, yeah, I cannot live like that. It was just really scary. But I was on a short medical leave of absence. The job I had was really very, very stressful, I had high blood pressure, and I was like 25. So, I took three months off and decided that I’d like to do something different. I went to Manpower for help at the time and the job counsellor suggested, well, there’s this place called Prairie Theatre Exchange that is looking for someone and they need someone that fits this kind of offbeat criteria for a government grant. And so, Colin [Jackson] hired me as the tour coordinator, without any kind of experience, without any kind of training, that was ’85, you could do that back then. Partly because I think that I did well in the interviews and I can demonstrate writing and all that kind of stuff, but also partly because he could get a grant to cover part of my salary, but I proved myself. I started as tour coordinator, and after about four years they made me the publications manager, so I was writing everything for the theatre. Writing is probably my strongest skill. And then, we moved into this building [Portage Place]. The first season was 89/90, which was a really interesting year because the offices didn’t move over until the spring of ’90. And so we packed up all that, you know, four story building and our offices and got over here and unpacked. And a week later I got accepted in a position at the Royal Winnipeg Ballet. I went over there for 11 years and there I went into development, but still a kind of marketing. I was the volunteer and special events coordinator, which involved more marketing than fundraising. But I evolved into the individual campaign manager. Ultimately, I ended up as the interim director of development. In 2002, I came back to PTE and I was both fundraising and marketing until just a few years ago when we did a little kind of shift so that Carmen [Johnston] took over all of the development work and I focused on marketing. So, it’s been a varied trajectory. But the key aspects of it, everything that I did involved writing skills and problem solving. Those are my top two things. Along the way I did a lot of workshops and seminars and, you know, learning as I go, so… I developed the knowledge and skill set that I needed to accomplish each of my jobs.
Hope Amazing. I think that’s so valuable because I think our students are here to be an actor and then they realize I love theatre, but that’s not the right fit. So this is beautiful that there’s different pathways to still be part of theatre.
Haanita Absolutely. It’s an amazing thing. The electricity around opening nights, whether you’re on the stage or behind the scenes, you’re part of something huge. You know, and yeah, I’ve loved every minute that I’ve been working in this environment.
Hope That’s amazing. Thank you for that. Yeah. Is there anything that you attribute to your success? What helped you get here? I know you talked about your strong writing skills. Is there anything else that that you feel was an important aspect of being able to be successful?
Haanita Well, definitely a certain level of adaptability. I was put into roles that I didn’t necessarily have the background or training to do. I had to figure out things for myself. There had to be a drive to do that and also to find answers to things I didn’t know. You can’t be operating in a vacuum. And the writing skills, definitely. The problem solving, absolutely. It took me a long time, but developing a method of planning and adhering to deadlines. I’m probably doing more now in my position than I did back when I started, and I was working 14-hour days, 14 days in a row. I know how to work smarter now, but that’s experience. That’s not something I think is necessarily immediately taught, but maybe there should be some focus on how to set priorities and goals and deadlines and how to manage those so that you don’t go crazy.
Hope Absolutely. Yeah. So many of the students need to work smarter, that’s for sure. Yeah.
Haanita Yeah, yeah. Especially when they’re in a smaller organization and they don’t necessarily have somebody kind of like watching what they’re doing. You do have to be self-motivated, because the next time that you, the first time that you find out that you’re not, that it’s been noticed, that you’re not covering everything is, you know, at a performance review and it’s not pleasant.
Hope That’s a really good point. Is there anything that you wish you had known when you started that, that you know now?
Haanita I wish I’d known just how varied the work could be. There’s just, hm, how do I phrase this? There are so many aspects to marketing and development in the arts. It helped that I’ve figured out how to do a little bit of desktop publishing, you know, a little in-house layout. Learning how to do budgets, because I knew nothing about budgets or budgeting. I had an amazing mentor when I was at the RWB and she taught me both budgeting and analysis of the results of all the different campaigns. It’s something that is immensely valuable to me. I kind of wish I had known that there were a lot of numbers involved. You know, marketing feels like it’s all writing, but it’s not. And so, it’s a good idea to have a grounding in that as well. Knowing a little bit more about how a professional theatre company is structured and how it works. I was lucky because I started at a very small company. One of the brilliant things about PTE back in the old days and even now is we have that big open area and we were always connected to each other at all times. So, I could see how it all worked. The RWB was a completely different organization and it was quite siloed. If I had started there, I would not have understood how interconnected everything is and I wouldn’t have understood what a stage manager does and what the production crew goes through and where the designers come from and all that background stuff. And I think that’s really important to have a knowledge of.
Hope Absolutely. Yeah. And I don’t know how much you get to work with emerging theatre workers or, you know, interns or emerging folks coming into the industry. But the next question is just about any gaps you notice.
Haanita Yeah. I mean, I have over the years taken on a fair number of mentorships and work placements and things like that. I’m not sure that promotional writing is being taught. It’s different than anything else, right? It’s trying to figure out how to paint a word picture of something you’ve never seen that will appeal to and make somebody make a decision to attend a play that they’ve never seen that they know nothing about. It’s both a skill and a technique. And I don’t know if that’s being taught. I know that I’ve had some, I’ve done a lot of editing in my day, right? Because that is, doesn’t seem to have been something that’s followed through. I’ve seen, some of the people that I’ve worked with were not really able to work on their own as much as I would have liked. When you have a work placement, you do actually hope that you can get your own work done too while guiding them. And there have been some that I don’t think they quite had the hang of that. I don’t know if they didn’t expect it or if it’s, not everybody has that aptitude besides, right? So, and like a really good grounding in the basic computer software that we use, like Word, like Excel, you know, those are the two top ones. I’ve worked with people who had never used Excel before, and it’s really basic. A knowledge, like very rudimentary knowledge of how design, graphic design works, because we need to work with designers and somebody who doesn’t have any kind of a grounding in it may not understand the challenges of too much text, right?
Haanita Or not understanding how information can flow through a design or even the challenges really, that the designers are going through. We’re really lucky. We have very collaborative designers. I know not all of them are like that, but at least I know when to push and when not to push for something. In a design when I feel confident that what I’m asking will improve the design and not just make the designer’s life miserable because I know it looks awful, like we are not designers. That’s why we hire professional designers. But understanding some of the fundamentals of how design works, I think could be very, very useful. And I don’t know if that’s being taught or anything. So, I don’t know if this is… are we talking about the gaps or are we talking about how universities could better prepare theatre workers?
Hope Well, I think they’re very interconnected. So, you’ve kind of merged them together, which is great. So, if there’s anything else you want to add in terms of how we can better prepare theatre workers…
Haanita I did mention budgets.
Hope Mm hmm. It’s a big one.
Haanita It’s entire structure. I think, I think it’s really counter-productive if people coming out of a theatre training program on the production side or on the marketing side don’t understand what the other does because that can lead to a lot of misunderstandings and potentially resentments. And we need to be a team.
Hope No, that’s great. I love that. And I think one of the things I’ve been learning as I’ve been teaching this f business of theatre course, is that there is a real lack of understanding across some of these aspects of theatre. Yeah.
Haanita Yeah. At the RWB there was definitely like I said, it was, it was quite siloed and it was really clear that anything that marketing / development asked of production was viewed as some kind of an irritation that we really, you know, there was no reason for us to be asking them to do that. And that made it uncomfortable for us. They just had no idea what it was that we did and how it supported what they did.
Hope So weird and we want audiences at the shows. So yeah. Excellent. Now thinking about how one secures work in your area is the next question, and I think I often had students want to work in marketing for the arts. How do they get a job in that area?
Haanita Yeah. I mean, that’s a tricky one. And again, it’s kind of… it blends into the question eight about the specifically for the arts. I mean, there is a big carousel that goes on in the arts, you know, like someone will move from one organization to another and then somebody will move into that one and somebody moves into that one. You know, once you’re in the arts, in the performing arts, it really helps. Getting into the performing arts is like getting into any other field, like just constantly being aware of what openings there might be. And this kind of blends into question nine as well. So, I’m going to answer question eight and then.
Hope Feel free to blend them all together. That’s totally fine.
Haanita So, if a call goes out for some position in a marketing department. For me, the thing that will always impress me the most is if a candidate comes in actually having gone to the website and understanding what it is that the organization does and is able to cite their understanding of what the organization does. I mean, to me that is the bare minimum of applying for any job. I think a portfolio is important. It should have writing examples of different styles and purpose. So, writing a like a news release, an article because often we do articles in the program or as a newsletter, promotional items as I said, that seems to be one of those things that I wish more folks have had more experience and training in. And ads or play blurbs. So, you’re talking about like just a little how do you describe something in just a tiny little bit of, of text and how do you, when you have the luxury of room, how do you describe it? I think also including examples of social media campaigns that they might have been a part of, or designed for school or a marketing plan to demonstrate the full breadth of their knowledge and skill in that area because we all have to be able to plan. Yeah, so what I was thinking, how in your questionnaire, how does one secure work is actually more like number ten as well. So, yeah. So, in addition to that, what I look for in an apprentice or a mentee or a new hire, passion for the art form is, is at the top, or at least the performing arts. And that means, people who actually go to the performing arts, you know? I guess to me, if somebody said, Yeah, I’ve gone when I was in grade 12, I went to, you know, dinner theatre is really not quite the same thing. But if you’re talking about people who are actually going through theatre administration training, I think that already demonstrates a passion. A sincere desire to learn as much as possible, or work collaboratively. I think that’s really important. Written communication skills. I’m always going to put up there at the top a detail-oriented mind and the ability to plan and set and achieve goals and deadlines. The ability to be flexible so that they’re not thrown by everything that gets, that we go through in a day. You know, like there’s always sudden changes in plans and priorities. You know, the first of all, your priorities, you have, you know, like three or four right up at the top of the list that have equal importance and then you come into work. And number five has now moved up to number one, you know, and it, if you don’t have that flexibility of mind and the ability to kind of roll with it, it’s not going to be pleasant for you or the people that you work with.
Hope Absolutely. Yeah. That’s incredible. It’s all the stuff, I think our students need to work on, yeah.
Haanita At the RWB, I was away on maternity leave at one point, but I came back in and we had a work placement who is, who’s there as like an office worker and I met her before I left. But when, I came back, she had quit in the middle of her work placement and she told my lovely boss and mentor she’d never seen any place that was so disorganized. And of course, it wasn’t disorganized. It’s an arts organization and things change.
Haanita And all the work gets done, you know, but maybe in a different order than we thought at the beginning of the week. And that’s an example of a mind that isn’t flexible enough to be in this particular environment.
Hope Absolutely. Yeah. I think you’ve beautifully tackled all those questions that overlap and merge. Yeah, yeah. So, if we look at number 11, um, is that where.
Haanita Well, let’s go back to number ten. Oh yeah. What I would recommend to folks struggling to get their start.
Hope Yeah.
Haanita It’s kind of the same or has aspects of how to get your start in the first place, if they want to start working in the arts. I think first of all, keep learning. So even when you’re finished your formal training, there are a lot of professional organizations that offer workshops and seminars and webinars. And, if you can get one or two new things out of a session, even though there might be a lot of other things that you’ve already known, then it’s absolutely worth your while. Plus, it can also just verify the things that you know. Right? So, it helps a little bit with self-confidence, too. You know, I knew that. Reaching out to some of the established people in the field. To kind of establish some relationships and gain some insights into what you might need to improve your skills or, you know, be able to offer to an employer. I think that also carries on to actually reaching out to the GM’s or AD’s to find out, you know, what kinds of things they might be looking for in a marketing person, because that makes yourself visible as a potential candidate even before a job becomes available and go to performances, go to shows as much as you possibly can. I think we all have, you know, under 30 programs. And there’s also like I know that our last call tickets are like ten bucks. Arts workers, which I would, we’re very flexible about what we consider arts workers. It’s $15. So, most of our performing arts organizations have really tried to reduce the financial barrier. So, I would highly recommend that you make yourself a regular attendee at these things because people notice. And then, you know, when you do have the opportunity to talk to somebody that’s in one of the fields that you want to be in or in one of the organizations you want to be in, that you have something that you can talk about. Yep. That’s, that’s the end of my notes.
Hope That’s amazing. Yes. And I, as a side note, I really appreciate the emails you’ve been sending. I put them all out to our students and they’ve been so excited, one emailed me yesterday about going to see the show this week.
Haanita That’s awesome. That is so awesome. I mean, for an organization, that kind of ties into one of the things further on and specifically for marketing people is how do we get new audiences in? And absolutely, students are, you know, one of the audiences that really need to be made to feel like this is a viable entertainment option.
Hope Absolutely.
Haanita Not just people who are in theatre. And I don’t, we don’t see enough of theatre students.
Hope It’s really interesting.
Hope Well, I think we keep them too busy sometimes. And that’s our challenge because, I mean, our students are constantly overwhelmed and burnt out right now.
Haanita Yeah, well, this time of year for sure. Yeah, they need to come to a funny show.
Hope Exactly, that’s what I said. You know, write your exam and then go see the show. It’ll be a release, yeah. Excellent. So, then that brings us to number 11. In terms of what advice do you have to those leaving, training and entering the profession?
Haanita Be prepared to be maybe a little lower in the hierarchy than you might feel like you should be. Any role that you have is preparation for the next role and puts you into that ideal position to take advantage of having built your skills and your profile and, you know, and then you’re there. So, nothing is, is well, nothing is too small. It’s not a reflection of your skills. It’s maybe a reflection of your experience just starting. I think that students need to know how fast paced and high energy and sometimes stressful working in an arts environment can be, because of competing deadlines and situations changing. It’s not a standard office situation. I don’t think that they should expect to be working 12 hour days. But I do think that they shouldn’t be surprised if sometimes your days are a bit longer than other days. They should be able to buy in completely to the organization that they’re working for. That means attending performances, helping wherever you can, you know, like again, in order, in an organization like Prairie Theatre Exchange, we do help wherever we can. You know, but in a large organization where there’s really like larger departments and more of a split, that’s not always going to be possible. But the more that you do, the more that you learn, you know? So, if you’re helping the props person hunt down a particular prop, then, you know, you’re getting kind of like that insight outside of your own little office. Yeah.I mean, one of the challenges of arts organizations these days is that we simply are not able to hire the number of staff that we actually need. And that’s one of the things that sometimes causes workloads that might be heavier than we would like to assign. But that’s where the planning and the priority listing and list making in general really, really helps. It isn’t a 9 to 5 job where you could leave everything behind you at the office. It’s something that’s going to stick in your mind, you’re thinking about when you’re at home, too. So, yeah, those are the top ones.
Hope Yeah, that’s great. That’s different than, like you said, some nine to fives. So, it’s good for students to be aware of that but.
Haanita Yeah. Yeah. It’s probably going to be more akin to what they’re used to in school than what they imagine an office job would be like. You know, like having those assignments and those things that they need to think of outside of the actual time that they’re sitting in class. That’s what we do.
Hope Yeah, that’s a really good point. Yeah. And as we think towards the future of theatre, what should we be working towards in terms of student readiness, trends, changes that you either hope to see or that you feel are coming down the pipe that that students should be ready for?
Haanita Yeah, it’s going to be tough for a few years yet. We probably will never be back in the same position that we were before the pandemic hit, which means that we are all adjusting. We’re not pivoting as much as we were for a couple of years, but we are all definitely still adjusting and still trying to figure things out. I think, we need to continue to try to figure out how to do more with less. And I think creative thinking and problem solving are going to be kind of like the top of everybody’s mind, just trying to figure out new ways of reaching out. So, I think students need to have a really good grounding in the traditional methods of marketing. I don’t feel like we should be abandoning things like print ads and letter writing and postcards and other vehicles that have always been helpful in selling performing arts. But we definitely need to also give equal attention to the newer methods of social media and email and social media is always evolving. Digital theatre to stream online is something that we started during the pandemic and we intend to continue to do digital productions, but it was not the big saviour that we were kind of hoping for. I know we’re not alone in that, when we did digital works, the response was not at all at the level that we expected. It’s just that many people just don’t want to watch live theatre on a screen, right? It’s just not the same thing. On the other hand, digital theatre does give us the opportunity to reach beyond our physical space. And we were able to reach people across the country and into the States and UK. It’s an interesting challenge, trying to figure out what new methods will work and which ones may sound really great, but don’t actually do what we need it to do.
Hope Amazing. And then the next set of questions are really looking at those employed by theatres because we’re talking to some freelance folks, of course. And then the difference often for students to understand is tricky. So, in terms of how a theatre operates or do you think there are key things that are important for students to know about the operational side?
Haanita Well, I think coming back again to the interconnectedness of all aspects of a theatre structure is really important to know. If we don’t see ourselves as part of an integrated team, then everything becomes more difficult. You know, just the standard kind of structure. How funding works I think is important, how budgets work. So, you know how your own budget works. Well, how does the rest of the organization’s budgets kind of dovetail?
Hope Mm hmm.
Haanita So all those things.
Hope Yeah. And what are the challenges of keeping a theatre company running? I know you’ve already mentioned human resources challenges…
Haanita Yeah. Human resources funding is stagnant. And that’s a real challenge because as you know, all of our costs are going up and the revenue that we make from actual tickets is a very small chunk of what a theatre needs to operate. And our audiences are down. So we rethought our budget as much as we could. But the audiences are that unknown factor. They’re definitely slow to return. They’re being extremely cautious. So, I think those are the biggest aspects.
Hope Absolutely. Yeah, and could you talk a little bit about the relationship of staff and board? Because it’s something I know students have challenges getting their heads around – this role of board governance.
Haanita In the simplest terms, the board of directors is there to set policy. And to make sure that policy is adhered to. But they hire the leadership in most theatres. It’s usually a two-pronged leadership structure, the general manager or managing director and the artistic director. And those are the people that liase directly with the board. Everything is supposed to flow from those two people down. So, in a well-formed board structure, there shouldn’t be a lot of interaction between staff and board. Then again, in very small organizations where it’s a one- or two-person shop, often there will be board members who are necessary to take on more of a hands-on approach. They’re almost fulfilling some staff roles that the organization is not able to hire for. It can be tricky, because there is that balance that the board members are volunteers, not paid staff. Also, if the board has not been given a proper orientation, or if you have a board president who doesn’t really understand that they are not the bosses of the staff, then you get some tricky situations. The board can also be called on to form committees that are there, in an advisory capacity, often for marketing and development. So, they should be there to support the staff’s efforts. They should not be directing the staff’s efforts.
Hope Yeah. That’s very clear in terms of how you’ve described it, which is great. Yeah, thank you for that. And the next question… it’s interesting because I’ve had a lot of students take my business class who are business students.
Haanita Right. Yeah.
Hope And so they often have this question -should I just freelance in my marketing work? And farm out my services or should I look for a full-time gig? I don’t know if that’s something you have any advice around?
Haanita On the one hand, if you freelance, you’re hustling for all your gigs, and so you’re constantly, it’s like auditioning over and over again. If you’re not the kind of person that can go out and hustle, then that probably isn’t for you. That’s versus stability in an organization where you have benefits and you know your working conditions, you’re working a set term or a consistent salary. For me, I would never look at working freelance. I would just, yeah, it’s as bad as auditioning for a role. Conversely, it’s the freedom to take on many types of projects, many different kinds of organizations that can be more exciting for some folks versus being what some people may feel is just restricted by a single organization’s mandate or product or the culture. So, for some people who like or need that continual kind of mix of things, then that’s something that could be a good option. However, I don’t know how many organizations in Winnipeg would take on freelancers. My impression of most of the organizations in Winnipeg is that they hire staff, you know.
Hope Yeah. That’s a good point. Yeah.
Haanita Yeah. I mean, I’m definitely all about working for an organization and, you know, like if you, if you are able to get on with an organization who is, whose values and work you know, align with, your own passions, then you’re golden.
Hope Absolutely. And then specifically to marketing management positions. Anything you want to share about how marketing for the arts or theatre specifically is different than other like business forms of marketing?
Haanita Yeah, it’s really different. Generally, in marketing, commercially, a company will identify a market and then develop a product that fills a real or perceived need. In the arts, we already have a product and we have to find the market for it. Which can be difficult. It’s not an infinite pool of people who consume performing arts. And so, all of us are, I don’t use the word fighting because that’s not… In Winnipeg, at least, we’re a very tight knit community. All the performing arts, but especially the theatres, we don’t view each other as competitors, but we are all trying to get a bit of a larger piece of the pie, but it will never be that much larger of a pie. Right? So, first of all, we’re trying to convince those who do go to theatre or do go to some form of performing arts that this particular play is exactly what they want to see. And here’s why you want to see it. We are also trying to figure out ways of bringing in people who have not necessarily considered going to the theatre as being something that’s really for them because it’s never been part of their experience. We are all working to enlarge that pie. But it’s going to be small increments. There are people that you will never convince that theatre is something they want to see. For example, we did Playing with Fire: The Theo Fleury Story. The actor was playing hockey on the stage. I mean, literally, he’s on ice-skates. And we had a really hard time getting Jets fans in, sports fans because it’s “theatre”, but it’s not just theatre –
Hope It was hockey!
Haanita It was hockey! And the few hockey folks that we did get in got that. But it’s trying to convince those that really simply don’t have any use for us, for theatre, that it’s something that they might like. It’s a challenge.
Hope Well, I think so many people have preconceived notions of what theatre is, right? So, you’re also working against that. Yeah. And what would you look for if you were hiring someone into your own position?
Haanita Okay, so my position is, you know, kind of like at the top of the skill sets list. And it’s you know, it’s something that people really actually do need experience for.
Hope Of course, yes.
Haanita So, definitely passion for theatre. Definitely a collaborative personality. The ability to work collaboratively, but also be self-motivating because if you’re at the top of the heap, really nobody should need to be telling you what to do. Excellent writing skills with the ability to write for different audiences. Are you writing for subscribers or are you writing for single ticket buyers? The message and the voice need to be different because they have different relationships with us. If you’re writing for single ticket buyers and you’re writing for the 30 and unders, that will sound different than if you’re trying to convince a company to bring people for an entertainment evening. So, you need to be able to have all these different voices and be articulate and empathetic in each of the voices that you use. There does need to be experience in marketing for theatre if you’re going for my job, and that includes both publicity and social media, which is related but separate from marketing. Marketing tends to deal with paid promotion and direct campaigns to target markets. Publicity is more working with media and the free promotion that you can get from working with different groups to spread the word, outreach, that sort of thing. And then social media. My particular job does not entail social media but I think that a person in my position still needs to have a really good understanding of how social media works. And what works and what doesn’t. Experience in planning, creating and booking ads and ad campaigns. A demonstrated ability to handle the fast-paced, high-energy shifting pace of an arts environment. Experience in developing marketing plans and budgets absolutely is necessary for this position. Problem solving is like right up there, because things seldom go to plan. And the first question that should be on your mind when something goes off the rails is what can we do to fix this? Or, what else could we do? If we can’t do that anymore, then what else can we do? And last on my list is a sense of humour. Because if you don’t have a sense of humour, you are not going to function in this place, and probably most of the performing arts. We’re a special kind of people, I think.
Hope Absolutely.
Haanita Yeah, well, we’re all a bit, you know, unusual.
Hope In a good way.
Haanita In a very good way, in the best possible way.
Hope Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I love that. And yeah, obviously I’m not talking about a student going immediately into your position, but they’ll ask, so in ten years I want to be here. What do I need to work on? And this is an amazing list. So, that’s great. And then finally I think you’ve talked a bit about some of this, just the challenges of attracting audiences to theatre in general and attempting to get those cultivation of new audiences.
Haanita Yeah, I, even before the pandemic happened, theatres across the country have been seeing a decrease in the number of people willing to commit to a subscription, which was always seen as kind of like the saviour of theatre. People who would commit to five, six, whatever plays in spring of the previous year. It’s a steady income stream you can count on, and also you knew for a fact that there was going to be X number of audience in the different shows. That has been dying off. That’s been going on for years. PTE was not seeing a really big drop. But now we are. There’s a lot of uncertainty in potential audiences right now. You know, they don’t know what the future holds. Financial security has become a bit of an issue. People are definitely more likely to wait to commit to a play until the play is right there. And Winnipeg is a really last-minute town, it’s a nail-biter in this city. So that’s made it even more critical to try to figure out how to get different audiences in. Some of that is programing. But some of it is opening up dialogues, I think, with diverse groups of people and communities. So, outreach can be really important, identifying influencers in different markets. We’ve been making a really strong effort in trying to increase the diversity of our playwrights, and the experiences that we show on stage. One of the things that we’ve been trying to do is also increase our outreach into communities of people of colour, indigenous communities, newcomers. Some of these communities may not have traditionally gone to theatre and some of the prevailing wisdom is that’s because they haven’t seen themselves represented in the theatre. But it also doesn’t mean that just because you do a show written by a black playwright with a black actor in it, that the black community is instantly going to go, yeah, I’m going to that. Right? Because theatre has not been part of the experience of so many in that community. It’s a challenge. It’s a real challenge. One of the things that most of us have found is that young audiences have always been really hard. Really, really hard. This is nothing new. Nobody has come up with the ultimate solution yet. We’ve all got some form of 30 below programs, where we’ve reduced the prices as much as we can. We’ve tried events because we’ve been told that that particular segment really enjoys kind of like the feeling of being part of something special and having, you know, extra experiences. Again, it’s not a be-all solution, but it’s definitely one prong that we need to keep trying. One of my observations through all of these years where we have all gotten around the table and tried to figure out how to get the young people in, is that it’s definitely really important that we have matinees for high school students, so that they have that early experience. Then they get into university and they get really, really busy and then after university they’re trying to establish a career. And now folks are not really establishing families until into their thirties. There’s a gap there that I don’t know that we will ever actually be able to get our hooks into. But if we can give them the early experiences, then when they are ready to start leaving the house, and leaving their kids with a babysitter, theatre is something that they have experienced and can see it as an option. And then we have to find those people and get them the information. So, a lot of it is trying to find the people. Find the target markets. Yeah.
Hope Yeah, that’s great. Yeah, so challenging. But I hear what you’re saying in terms of some things you just can’t solve, but…
Haanita But you don’t stop trying.
Hope Yes.
Haanita Right? Because even, like, small increments is better than not trying at all. And you never know where when you’re going to hit somebody that just goes, this is life changing. This is this is the kind of thing that I want to see. And that’s why we’re all here, right, is to give people that kind of experience.
Hope Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It’s why we do all of it.
Haanita Right, it ain’t for the money, that’s for sure.
Hope Absolutely. Excellent.
Haanita That should be one of the things that students get warned about, that you are not going to retire as millionaires.
Hope Yeah, I think we try to give them that message pretty early on. Okay. Yeah. Don’t do it for the money. Don’t do it for the fame or the glamour. No, no glamour. They still. They still do it. So. Yeah.
Haanita You know what? For those who have the kind of personality and the aptitude and even just the affinity for the arts, they will find a place for themselves that is more like a home than any other job that they could possibly find. There is nothing like working for an organization where you are creating something beautiful for the community. You know that, yeah, it’s just the best feeling.
Hope That is amazing. I like that. Find a home. Yeah. That’s beautiful. This is amazing. You have added so much value to this. Absolutely. Is there, is there anything else that you that you wanted to share? I mean, it’s incredible everything you’ve contributed.
Haanita It feels like we’ve kind of touched on all of it, I think that last bit about, you know, how working in this field can be utterly rewarding. I think is kind of, my final message. Don’t be scared off by budgets and the planning and the shifting priorities and, you know, rapidly changing situations. Ultimately, you are part of a team that’s doing something big and important.