Interview with Denise Clarke

Interview with Hope McIntyre and Denise Clarke

Hope  I know you’ve had an illustrious career in theatre, but how long have you been doing what you do?

Denise  55 years. You know, over a half a century. I mean, I say that because I trained as a classical dancer from the age of four. I mean, that’s when my obsession started, I was obsessed as a child. And that transformed once I got a political consciousness away from the ballet. And also, I’m very tall and I was also very hungry and just finally went, I don’t think… I don’t want to be this thin for… I don’t want to have to worry about that as a life choice. So I’m lucky and I guess I had a somewhat built in smart gene that just helped me go, this is going to be hard for this body type. And instead went into creative and contemporary movement. Well first I did show dancing. I danced jazz and on TV and stuff and then went hmm nah this isn’t for me, but amassed this huge amount of chops. And so then turned that into a career as an independent choreographer and performer. At the same time, I was starting work as a big house choreographer, and then Rabbit, I started to work with One Yellow Rabbit as an actor. And then very quickly as a playwright and director and, you know, making my own work, and working as a performer with that ensemble, which has been my world, the bulk of my life’s passion.

Hope And did you, I know you trained in dance, but was it all just hands on practical training and experience on the theatre side?

Denise  Yeah. Yeah. No, not a day in theatre school. The Rabbits were kind of a, you know, motley crew. We were more into the punk scene and more sort of rock band. And so, it was a very helpful model. I realize now at the time it just seemed cool and that’s what we were like and that’s what we wanted to do. And we didn’t relate to theatre even though I was, you know, completely into shows. Like I love, you know, Cabaret and all the shows that I was, I was always a huge fan of all of that and Broadway, but I didn’t really want to do it. Until I found myself choreographing it, I was like, oh, I’m really good at doing this. So, all those hundreds of, you know, visits to the film set to the films of my childhood paid off. And, anyway, so those two things happened parallel too but the Rabbits were really on the job. Michael Green had a bit of theatre school behind him. Curtis, I think, had maybe a year before he transferred into visual art and then improv. The two of them also did a lot of improv with Loose Moose here. Andy especially. And comedy. And then Blake was just a poet, not just a poet, a kind of amazing poet, but his practice, he was very interested in theatre. And so along with Gyl Raby, I don’t know if you know Gyl, but you know that whole gang put together the first iteration with a couple of other, another poet, Kirk Miles and George McFall, and they were into clowning and kind of spectacle-based stuff and very much what the kids are into now. And it was a year too young, but that was a big trend then for kind of alternative theatre making. It wasn’t my jam. It’s not that I was too much of a snob, a little bit of a snob, but I was less inclined towards the clowning and the circus and the outdoor spectacle, because I always really liked theatres and control of the environment – which tells you a lot about me. But they – so anyway, once I started in and the collective exploded and kind of settled back into Michael and Blake co-directing the company, it was a more comfortable environment for me to really settle in, even though I adored everybody in the original collective and still do. It was more a place where I was more at ease because I didn’t want to do the Circus of the Clown. And they began using my methodologies for movement and choreographic and physical practice instead. So that’s how it all… and we just learned from each other. I mean, I learned from acting, from working with Michael and Blake’s aesthetics were so refined even for a non-theatre practitioner that, you know, this relaxed, this precision economy relaxation fetish of his we all bought into. And so, he had a very exacting eye and Michael was an absolutely fearless performer. So, I quickly got over any kind of dignity disease and would do anything along with them. You know, so we just had a real stroke of good fortune with each other.

Hope Absolutely. And yeah, have made such a huge contribution. And I think, you know, when you think about, know, success, like you saying earlier, you know, it’s not about money and houses, but for me, like the longevity and you know, the fact that you’re still doing it is a huge success in our, in our milieu. What do you attribute that success to?

Denise  Well always the first thing that comes to my mind is fun. We just had so, and still do, have so much fun. And it’s a really big part of the values that the company practices and that we really espouse and that, you know, it’s like if you break down the word fun, then you will have a safe space, you will have a healthy atmosphere in the room. there will not be a toxic residue on things because people won’t stay. And so, long before the conversation on safe spaces became part of our practice now, we Rabbits already been very hardcore in terms of like, don’t be a drag, like do everything but be fun and nice and kind and respectful. And so, this of course, let’s be really clear, this isn’t a landscape where there were not a lot of boundaries in what we would say and how we play. We’re very playful people. And so in the room kind of anything went. And there was a book by Milan Kundera. Or it was an interview, perhaps, but it really defined something for us when we were very young. And he said, you know, in creative relationships, the understanding that you can cross boundaries is – has to be understood in, you know, so that the interplay is completely nonjudgmental. Because if you do and I mean, this is extremely relevant, I think, to today’s conversations. Because it’s like if you don’t have that and you’re constantly monitoring yourself or others, you will not have the same atmosphere to make startling, original, dangerous, risky and, for audiences, thrilling work. You will probably keep always smoothing the edges. So for us, I think that was a big part of why we again, why were together Hope is that we, we, we understand and we’re not, trust me, I don’t mean that we’re like some kind of, there’s not a lot of sexist, nasty or there’s no racist or anything like that is not on and never has been. But language and play and naughtiness and line crossing – that’s definitely understood to be. We are together and within here, we will cross lines because we’ve all agreed. And so anyway, all of that is probably why we’re still together, because it means that you’re not ever feeling Andy Curtis’s expression is Don’t stop my buzz. And so, you know, what did that mean – was a kind of always a ball in the air.

Hope  I love that. That’s great, because I think now we want to make sure that when we talk about safe spaces, that there also still brave spaces or like you said, you know, there’s a chance to, to do things risky and exciting and, yeah.

Denise  And, you know, you might be in the middle of something and somebody will say something that makes you, I mean, you know, I talked about this with the Beautiful Young Artists that I work with, which is the name of the program I run. And, you know, I’ll say, like, guys, if I offend you, please tell me right away. Just like, whoa, D like, immediately, let me see it and I’ll talk. I’ll be very interested to be  “Oh, what”. But don’t school me all the time or I can’t teach you. I can’t be with you. And they love it. My crew are like, okay. And, you know, so far they haven’t had to and vice versa. They seem liberated by the fact that they can tell that I’m not mean and I’m not going to… And for us, for me, it’s like I see that they are coming to me. And they are, they are grateful to be somewhere where there is not such care at all times. Because it’s like you guys, I want to trust that you can keep yourself safe. And, you know, you either can trust me right now that I do not want to harm you. And if, if a question of whether or not I will harm you is in the air, you must understand that I might. I don’t know what to say, but we are, you know, I don’t want to work in that landscape. I want to work in aesthetics and fun and chops. I want you to build skills. And that means that language has to flow and fly.

Hope I think, obviously, you’ve built a trust where they know it’s coming from a good place, right? That it’s, yeah.

Denise  I guess so. Yeah, I guess so. And it’s very important. And I, you know, I just it’s like, well, trust has to start with the desire to have trust. You can constantly keep earning trust or it’s like, well then that’s not trust.

Hope  Absolutely. And is there anything that that when you think back so anything you wish you had known earlier in your career that that you’ve learned along the way.

Denise  Not really. I mean I was always in it for the ride. Well, you know, I’m very… Maybe that’s another reason we were so interested in each other. We’re very experiential types. We didn’t really want to know shit. We were like, kind of don’t talk to me about it. Like theory was not of interest to us. Sort of as a manifesto might be fun to read. We liked manifestos as a matter, but only as sort of documents to go like woo crazy. So, we were quite cognizant, and we schooled ourselves in all the manifestos of all the movements throughout time. But we, I think we were just real punk in that as defined by, you know, it was about do it yourself. And so, if you’re not into do it yourself, it was like… Well, I love classical theatre. I mean, I love it. Quite madly actually. But as a young woman, it was not what I was aiming at. I did not, you know, was not longing to play Shakespeare yet. So, I think that’s another reason you know.

Hope Absolutely, yeah. And other, any gaps that you’re noticing in the young people that you’re working with now, like are there things that we are not equipping them to do in whatever training they’re receiving?

Denise  Well, I’m certainly not going to lay any blame on just the academics, because I don’t think that would be fair. But the strictures that academics are under are not helpful. And I have many colleagues who are, in your position, who teach in universities, and so I know what goes on. I’m very clear about it. And, I mean, I’m all for critical theory, but not to the extent where it’s like – You watch what you say Prof. Because then, it’s not academic freedom. So, what I’m sensing that they come in with is that very, a careful, that’s what is, I’m seeing, is that they seem to be longing to be told, well, you know, either you’re in or you’re out. Like they, really and they kind of so they kind of laugh off their correctness and they just get down to being kind of young and a bit wilder. And so, what are they missing? Over Covid, it’s not fair to say, because this is a very, very extraordinary period. But I can give you a couple of quick examples. One young man, he told me one day, he told one of his young colleagues, oh, tell Denise I can’t come. I won’t be in tomorrow. And they were on contract with me. And I asked why? He’s tired. And I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He can’t not come to work, because the night before he did a ten-minute thing, it’s okay, sweetie. But no, he can’t miss work because he’s tired. And then it morphed into but he’s also going to do this reading for this other group. And so, when I talked to him, I was like, you know, did you read your contract? And he went, no. Number one, you actually do have to read the contract. And he was, “oh my God, I’m so sorry”.  I said it’s okay. But you’ve offended me by suggesting that I’m not really so important right now when I’m, I give you a contract and money. Well, he was like aaaah and I said, if you do this in any other professional theatre setting, you’ll be fired. I said, did any of this come up when you were self-training in COVID days? He said no. I said, okay, I totally forgive you, but never do this again. So, there’s that. And there was also, so there was a lot of that kind of like um, I’ll kind of make it work if I can. I was like, no. Oh, no. Because they all passed and nobody said like, hey, not good enough. No way. So there’s that little problem.

Hope  Absolutely. The COVID years. Yes, have certainly created –

Denise  Before that I would say it was more I would just notice that there was a lack of… chops. You know, in favour of, like the opening up our repertory system or what we used to call conservatory programs. And moving more into the school of everything where it’s this generalized stuff, which, that’s my jam. So I do dig that. But, I have lots of chops. And so, I would be like, that is not good enough if you want to do a physical theatre piece. That’s not a good enough movement piece to include.  It has to be excellent if it’s going to be included in your stage presentation for an audience. I don’t know if you recognize that at all, Hope, but I have. I began to see language skills decreasing. I’d noticed that they didn’t feel it was necessary to learn words. And so, constantly correcting pronunciation, you know, never meanly; I said, guys, this is my thing. I’m an autodidact. So had people not corrected me, I literally would not have known half of my language. I was lucky enough that people around me just quickly corrected me. So that’s what I’m going to do. I’m just going to always pronounce it correctly for you. And don’t take offense, but you have to know how to say words and they’d be like, okay. So those kinds of chops, you know, like absolute skills; do you understand what you’re saying? I’m goin’ ta the store. And the line is I’m going to the store. It’s a formal text piece. do all your math on how, who’s saying it and how would they speak and how did they form all their words? That’s a thing? Can’t say ta, I’m going to ta. So those were interesting things for me; even though certainly when I was younger, I was like, oh brother, all this fuss on the way… how to speak. And   also another little thing I would like to see  back exact physical practice, exact. Learning what it means when I say I want you to be able to walk beautifully on a stage. What is the formal beautiful gait or what is, what is neutral, clear, beautiful posture in constant application?  It’s not, not just sometimes. If this character is an erect character, that’s work you have to do, to make sure. If this character is a sluffy kind of character. Cool. Excellent. What, how does it look all the time?  So let’s just see a little bit that that’s always what they seem most fascinated to… keep shaping. They seem very fascinated to be like, okay.

Hope  No, that’s amazing. We often have this conversation around balancing rigor in the work. And. Yeah. The students ask how do I get work when I get my degree or how do I get work when I graduate? What I’m hearing, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, is that without the excellence or the rigor, then the process of getting work isn’t going to , actually work, so to speak.

Denise  Okay, so in the EDIA community, as we know, a lot of, of what we’re seeing now as we’re going through this necessary time of balancing the way we look on stage is the way our casts look. I love it. It’s totally great. But I’ve talked to some students some young people who are, they’re not students anymore. They’re more young colleagues. And there’s well… I’m not getting the work because I’m not a person of colour. And I’ll say, well, just hang in there. Because you just need to keep being excellent and what will happen is that the artists of colour who have skills, they’ll keep getting work for sure. That’s who will get priority for these next few years. Right behind them will be people like you, who also have skills and they work beautifully together because this is just a time where certain people have a slight advantage and that’s as it should be for the time being. But that’s going to change and develop. And those left standing will be all the people who are good at their jobs, and also quit being so impatient. You know, you just graduated. You just ply your craft, you know. Really keep working. Get on stages no matter what. Do anything, to keep making sure that when you go into an audition, you’re comfortable, you know what you’re doing, you have confidence to a certain degree, and you’re prepared.

Hope  Yeah. And is there any other specifics or things that you would recommend in terms of  what you need to do to start booking the gigs or to start getting work in your area?

Denise  I see what goes on in the bigger houses around me and that I’m, again, I’m seeing shows that, I’m seeing a lot of sloppy work. Like, hmmm, this doesn’t really apply to everybody right now. But because I am seeing some sloppy work for young directors and I’m just waiting for the tides to shift again because it’s like, pick up your game, people. Audiences are not going to stick around. This is big. The whole, the ecology of the whole thing is what to keep in mind. And, you know, while we go through these changes and we start shifting everything, and again so welcome. It’s so… it’s always good. It’s always hard. It’s always good to have these big changes happen. But in the meantime, don’t let our audiences slide away because they’ll go and see like a big house show that is sloppy. Badly rehearsed, poorly directed, badly staged or no attention to staging. Just kind of slapped on and it’s like, yeah, got the gig, everybody’s happy. But it’s like, yeah, but it was bad work. And so, the audiences are mmmh, they’re mmmh. I’m very concerned about that. So, in talking about the whole thing, it’s like, what’s your place in that ecology? Aim at excellence. Aim at rigor. Never let anyone go, you know, like this is what concerns me, I have a young indigenous friend and I was talking to him and it was like, actually, I was talking to them and I was saying to them, it’s very essential that you do what, what we hear about the extra pressure on people like you, it’s true. But you’re, you’ve got it in you. You can handle it. Go for it. Stay rigorous. Stay good. Stay, keep working like you’re working. Don’t just, oh it’s so hard for me. It’s hard for everybody, but a bit harder for you. It’s okay. It’s going to pay off. It’s going to pay off. That kind of encouragement is always buying into the pathology. It’s very essential. And I’m seeing like, it’ll be like, I know it’s so hard. It’s like, well, yeah, it’s hard. What we do is not easy. It’s ridiculous. It’s crazy. There’s no real money, no security. And you’ll just, what you’ll get is a huge thrill if you do it right. So, might as well do it right.

Hope  Absolutely.

Denise  Or really, get another gig. Get another job. So I’m very mindful about that whole conversation because when you’re at Rabbit, what we are interested in is spirit, curiosity and the talent to back it up. And they make their way to us, we just notice it works. I have a young woman. She quit school, she had a lot of mental illness, spent a lot of time in institutions and she came out of everything, and she was like, I just want to do theatre. I don’t want to go to university, but I want to make. So, we said, “Well, you can come here”. You’re super smart. We know this, because we knew you in high school. Well, you just have to see, this kid is, she’s just flying. You know, and she’s a young artist of colour who again and I’m being very specific, so I really frame things for you. Because that’s really important. People are kind of nervous about being explicit about these things, but I think it’s important in the conversation. She is. There is no sloppiness in her aesthetic approach, and it has been put very clearly to her, like she’s around us. We’re not interested in any half measures. Steps right up. Seems to love it. Because she keeps being able to do it. And she’s working stage management and poetry, speaking on stage, performing in shows, helping make costumes, she was like… The expectation is very high. She is very happy meeting it.

Hope  Excellent. Wow. And that segues kind of beautifully into what kinds of things you look for in those young collaborators or emerging artists. Is there anything else that you would add in terms of what is it that makes you want to work  with someone?

Denise Well, again, this kind of like willingness to understand that you can learn from others. And that if you are saying, please let me in, which you are when you’re young. You are. That’s how, that’s what we did. That’s what we’ve all gone through, throughout time. Always. You’re basically going, can I come in? Can I play? So, what’s the sandbox? You know, where am I playing? And. You know, how do I, what do I do. Not what are you going to do for me, Hope, because I’d like to play with you, but will I be comfortable? Will it be okay? Are you dangerous? Will you make me feel uncomfortable? Because it’s like, you’re going to try some theatre. You always feel uncomfortable, because people are going can you be better? And, let’s do that again. Well, if you don’t got the stuff, then you’re going to be, why do I have to do it again? If that, sensitivity can’t be put into its place, you know, get a different job. So, this is what we look for. We’re looking for willingness to understand. We’ve been at this half century. So we think we know a bit more. Sorry, but we think we do. We also have a defined aesthetic. We also have a company culture. What is that? And part of… we’re trying to let them all see is like, Oh – this is a welcoming culture. This is fun. It’s rigorous. Oh, my God. I have to be off book on that tomorrow. Oh, nobody’s going to yell at you. But you’ll see that I’m slightly disappointed. It was like, oh, okay. Because you have to be off book tomorrow, I’ll give you another day. But, I mean, off book. And they be like oh, oh, oh, yes. So, if you’re going to another gig, you go into a different post. What’s the culture? What’s the expectation? Build your own expectations and values. You know, if you go like, I don’t feel good here. I do not like that guy at all, or that woman or that person. That person was unpleasant. Don’t go. We just had a very, very… I’m going to fill you in on this because I think this is another thing nobody wants to talk about it. And to me, it was like, oh, I think we should talk about it. We had a position in Calgary. An artist came in, took the gig. Artistic Director wrote and directed and adapted his own work, put it on the stage, hired two people. No directing experience, no, like not good adaptation skills. Absolute free for all in the rehearsal room. The artists were like so freaked out and frightened by the situation that the person had put themselves into, that they were outright abusive and had to be escorted from the theatre. And I’m looking at the culture of the organization saying, how did that happen? And to the young artist, one with whom I also work who was involved in that whole fiasco. Still is, poor kid. It was like, you’re just learning such a great lesson. You were just so like, I’ll do anything to get a professional gig. You know, if you don’t know what you’re getting into, you just learned a great lesson, which you kind of do when you’re young. So just chalk it up, baby, and you just know that you wouldn’t come to me with eyes this big. I just got asked to do something on an eight-foot plinth with no safety harness, and I’m just afraid I’m going to fall. And I was like, oh, you don’t have to do that. You don’t have to work on… safety is huge in this business, so you can totally get a safety harness. The director said, I can’t. I was like, well, don’t do it then. You can’t, don’t, no. Go to stage management. I’m really scared, said, okay. It was like, no, it’s not okay. It’s absolutely part of what you, see, this is what I mean. Like you don’t want to be “Oh, I can’t. I’m scared.” But on the other hand, if someone says, can you please go up there, on that little, tiny square and dance, you say no. So. From sublime to the ridiculous, it was just all like, what is going on? It was the culture, the organization, that that fiasco happened within. And I just kept, I wrote the whole cast, like, as if I’m important enough to write them, but I just wanted them to all know it from my perspective. They were heroes. Because they did what actors do, which is, you know, jump in and try hard and keep going. And there you saw it go into a complete like, oh, my God. So just, I think this is a big you know, we’re in a trepidatious time, a precarious time. And so, everybody needs to be on their toes in terms of what’s the real purpose, what are we really doing and what do we really need to take care of? In all our relationships and how we’re building our theatres and what we’re doing in our theatres and who’s running our theatres and why. Sniff it out. So, you know – I think when you start to have the feel goods, it maybe is a good sign.

Hope  Absolutely. Yeah. And are there any resources that you would recommend for those, you know, because I think trusting their gut is a hard thing. And also like you said so beautifully, the difference between a place of discomfort because you’re lacking bravery versus a place of discomfort because something wrong is happening.

Denise  Yeah.

Hope  Yeah. Any resources that you would recommend?

Denise  Well, no. I mean, this is the thing. There is no big money, but there is a wealth of human beings. That’s what we have. That’s what we’re rich in. We’re rich in human resources in this industry,  if you can call it an industry even – it’s a devotional form. And if you think of it that way, then you will put a premium on who’s someone I know and trust. To go to and say, what do you think? So, in my young friend’s case, for them to be able to say to me, I feel such, like I think I’m letting down the whole thing, I don’t want to do this. I’ve been asked to do this super dangerous thing. I’m just so scared. And I was like, okay, that you don’t have to do. Well, what her gig was, was to find me and maybe a couple of other people with experience to say, What’s your take? We, we can’t really teach that. We can’t really, there is no book, but there is a full life of going like what matters. Are you fighting a battle for, like, a safety harness? Now that’s clear and present danger. That’s obvious. And if the entire organization takes a week before they respond to you, that’s just not the case. You can be actually then very, very clear. I’m not doing that. I feel frightened. I’ve been told by people I trust that I don’t have to do that because I am frightened because it is eight feet in the air. Use your words. And just be super polite. You know, it’s not about like going on Facebook. That’s the disease. Okay, I can tell you that right now. What’s the biggest skill? Stay off social media. All of them. Everybody. It’s a disease. I mean, I am really prejudiced. And so, we’re talking about a very strong bias. I really dislike it intensely. For what? Its perception of being a place to air your thoughts freely. And it’s a really dumb place to me. It’s really toxic. As opposed to using your words. And having courage to check around and to be polite and to be rational and think about like… You know, what does it mean that I want, that I don’t want to do this? Am I being fair? take it on. Be accountable to yourself. And I see that that’s also something that’s gone missing. It’s like, who’s accountable? And if you say, like, I’ve been harmed, it’s not enough unless you actually have been harmed or you are in real danger. But just be the accountable one first to yourself. About everything. Look at the whole thing. And I just find that the answer’s always there.

Hope  That’s great. And what I’m hearing is just this this need to actually address those concerns in a proactive but also productive way, versus just ranting on social media, which isn’t necessarily going to actually lead to anything.

Denise Well, it can lead to someone getting fired. Or it can lead to like a stupid kerfuffle or it can lead to mob mentality, which is dumb, dumb things like, well, that’s not very helpful. Whereas using your words, and, you know, looking at the entire ecology of what you’re talking about, what is, what’s going on in the whole thing? And not just turning on people, but at the same time also, unless you going oh my God, that’s not cool. You know, I, I definitely, I’m checking myself. I haven’t been rude. I haven’t been disrespectful. I’ve been, I’m trying to address something that’s freaking me out. I’m calm. I’ve talked to my stage manager, I’ve talked to my friends, I’ve talked to my mentors. No. Like, do your work.

Hope  That’s great. And that kind of addresses the questions around when to say no to a gig or not. It’s just really, I think, doing that work. I’d love to chat a little bit about… because we also find that there’s this should I start my own company? Should I self-produce? Should I be freelance? Like that whole battle. And is there anything that you would like to share in terms of the notion of self-producing or creating a company versus working in the existing kind of infrastructure?

Denise Well, again, do your work, check out the landscape, maybe find, you know, maybe start with a you know, for us, what seemed to work was not the ego drive of an individual, but the desire to find likeminded individuals. So, we were always into this idea of the posse. Like, who’s in your band? So, it’s such a good metaphor. I don’t use it lightly because you, anybody who has tried to make music with someone, if there’s just nothing going on, there’s nothing going on. So don’t flog a dead horse. Compared to if people like wow, click, click or even a little bit sex, some tension here, some kind of what kind of tension is it? Use it if it’s healthy, and like or excite electric and you feel like, wow, I’m inspired. Like, okay. See, this is the whole conversation about career versus endeavor and instinct and art making because you’re an artist. And remember when that term went sort of awry and people oh, I don’t call myself an artist. And I was like, why? It’s my badge of pride. I’m, super proud of being an artist. But I noticed for a long time it was like, Oh, I don’t do art. I think that’s an odd comment for someone in the game. But if you are an artist and, inspiration moves you, or you are inspired by something to create, you know, listen to it. Not as a career move, but as an artist. We’re super lucky to live in a country that actually still has a granting system. Combine that with an entrepreneurial spirit, in other words, the courage to ask people to support you, to put together on the right scale, something that you feel is thrilling and really worthy of some people’s time and energy. Don’t start a company as a career move. Unless it’s because everything else just keeps falling into place. You’re just this, you know, like I can think of a couple of examples of young people around me right now who are just… they’ve just got it all. You know, they’re super bright, they’re very talented, like an excellent actor, excellent director, excellent chops, great writing skills, Funny, really, just the whole package, but also very entrepreneurial. And, you know, you just watch this young person and they don’t stop. They just are, they’re very respectful. Notice that about them. They’re super respectful and that kind of community build all the time and, I always think about them as like the sort of one of a sort of, wow. Yeah. This, comes from theatre, family, but, you know, comes from a dad who diverged from it like, I can’t afford this, I’m going to actually just get a job. But the mom stayed in the game. But there’s been a long, largely sympathetic world around art making. So, you know, like, you know, I guess Hope it’s about courage. Not blind, dumb courage, but courage of conviction and courage of… And you see, I believe again, once the whole thing is in place with some chops behind you, where, you know, like, I’m kind of good at that. Like, I’m actually, I think I’m good at that. And you have some evidence that you’re good at it. You know, if you can find some other people who you’re like, wow, I think we’re pretty good. You know, it takes a lot of lot of courage. Lot of work. But if it’s fun, then then who cares? You know, I mean, easy for me to say. I come from a pre-Internet age, right? So, it was like – just nothing else to do.

Hope  Sure. Yes. And I love this, like what you’re talking about the devotional practice with the artistry and having that all in place and the volition and the compassion. Is there anything about the kind of career side of the game, as you’ve been saying, that you think would be important for students to understand?, I don’t like the term industry necessarily either, but about how the industry functions. Is there anything they need to know?

Denise What can be a useful term if you just see it as one part of the whole game? And, you know, it’s, I think it’s also useful to think of it as a game. What’s involved If you play hockey and you want to actually make the show, as they say in hockey, I’ve hockey people in my life. So, you know, sport, baseball, anything. Any sport. So, what’s involved? Well, money. But you’ve got to be really good. So, it’s kind of sometimes it can be a useful thing. It’s the same thing in our thing. You got to make sure that it’s worth the effort to find the money. And then you have to be smart. Do the work. Get the grants. How do you get the grants? Well, again, another young colleague just got their first $25,000 grant. She said, I don’t know, I don’t know what I did right. And I said, I do. You did a great application. I sat on 50 juries, 60, 100 juries in my life. When you see a really strong application with everything you need to assess it, you’re looking at a whole bunch of them. You’re like, Wow. Top of the pile. Then you go back to them and you keep going. Like, this is a really good application. Smart, succinct. It’s, this person has talked to people who know how to write grants. They’re young. Look at how wonderful the, oh, look at this little video clip. Beautiful. Strong work. Oh. cool budget, good timeline, all of that in place, because we all do have to have that. You have to know how to build a timeline for your project and I kind of address that in the economy section of my book. What is the whole economy. What, how long do you have? You know?

Hope  Yeah.

Denise  I’m not. I’m sort of posing that as one of my questions to the others. How long do you have to make this thing? Okay, you want to do a technical extravaganza? That’s your thing. Okay, well, then you have to study someone like Ronnie Burkett. Ronnie’s, from seven years old, is going, I’m going to do this work. This is what I’m going to do. Check out his build. Check out how he’s went from, you know, standing in a suitcase theatre, which is how he and I began working together, him doing this, a piece of theatre that worked as a school show to the dirtiest, wildest blue nightclub act in the world. Same exact set and puppets. And then, you know, time goes by and he really wants to start crafting marionettes and he’s making this huge giant kind of cartoon marionettes. And then he starts moving them smaller and smaller and moving the scale and changing the scale. And then he starts realizing he needs elaborate, beautiful sets. And that now they’re coming into scale where he wants exquisite craftsmanship on the costume making. And needs to hire people. Everything is like, okay, how? You can do anything. How? What’s your steps? Build it. Like you go, okay. First thing I need is, you know, Ronnie had investors. And how did he get those investors? He went out and he, he talked them into it. And I, you know, he was always like, we’re very close friends, and he would say, you know, oh, I’m never going to Canada Council. You know? He hated them because they were sort of biased, were against puppetry, marionetting. And basically, it was a dead end for him for so long. Meanwhile, it turned into Ronnie Burkett’s Theatre of Marionettes. And then Canada Council started going like, oh, would you like some money? We support you. He’s a great example of like what’s the scale that you’re working at. Because you were a minimalist theatre on the other hand, and our scale is like, what we needed was a space. So, we put our resources into what does it mean to have your own theatre, right? Ronnie burns his shows when he retires them. They don’t live in a big warehouse. Kills me. It’s, they go to the dump. And it’s because that’s not part of what he wants to focus on. And so, you know, how do you, how can you afford that? You have to afford that.

Hope  Absolutely. Yeah. Well, what I’m hearing is, it’s really about finding the trajectory or the models that exist and learning from those the steps that others have taken.

Denise  Or, you know, and if that’s not somebody who’s really a true iconoclast and doesn’t like doing that, which was more what we were like or I certainly I was well, I think all the Rabbits were a bit more iconoclastic, we want to make our own. But it was always, those guys, Blake and Michael had a very strong, like didn’t take any money from the company for a couple of years. They worked for free. They kept jobs. so they could, make their theatre company. So, they did have an idea of what would happen. we’re going to need, our own space because we can’t do this without our space. Well, how are we going to get our own space? We need money. So, we’re going to start building a company that will do anything like mall gigs in the beginning to get the money. Those were not the years I was involved.

Hope The pre Denise years.

Denise  Yes. I so admired it. It was like, I mean, I was lucky I was teaching my ass off in those days. So I had money. I worked for free too. I worked for free with them for years. I didn’t take a paycheck because it was like, well, I actually make good dough teaching. Before I quit teaching because it was like, okay, I’m 30. If I keep teaching, I’m not going to do what I want to do, which is way more performing and creating. So, I had to give up that. But by then the Rabbits could pay me. And, you know, I was balancing it with a lot of big house gigs. And so that really was a great, maybe my career, if you could say, I had good luck and you could say I made my own luck.

Hope  Absolutely. Well, and hard work. Right?

Denise Yeah, hard work. Being good. Because if you don’t deliver in a big. If you know, if Canadian Stage calls you to come and choreograph their spectacle and you can’t do it fast and well, you’re not ever going to be invited back.

Hope  Yes. This has been amazing, so many great ideas. And I think it’s incredible. Thinking of the future there are any trends, anything you’re thinking that we need to be prepared for the next generation? Anything moving forward that you want to say to those new kind of emerging artists?

Denise  Well, yeah. Have heart. The water’s fine. You know, keep, open up your hearts and minds in unison. Dive on in. But I don’t see trends. I mean, if you’re looking. You could either go on to a streaming service and fight your way into writing for the screen and performing for the screen. So there’s that whole stream. But if you want to be a theatre artist. Look around you. Keep taking the temperature yourself. I don’t really trust trends. I think that what people who want to go to theatres will always like, will be going to theatres with other people and being entertained. Be careful you’re not just doing, you know, watch out for the trend of identity, ideological theatre making because it’s boring. Got to be really skilled to pull that off and not make it like, okay, I don’t want to be schooled right now. You know what can help people? Why do people, you know, you smell it out? Because I think artists make trends. So what I would say to them is, you know, keep your nose and, not your nose in the air, but keep your nose in the air and sniffing out like what do people want? What do people need? You know, how can I make it better? Oh, what if I do a beautiful, funny show that’s also really moving and, and touching? What if I make something for my age group that they just flock to because it’s fun? And smart. You know, I think that just that’s, that will, I think really invigorate them to go what’s in your hands? You know, we come from a time. Me, I come from a time where, you know, there were all kinds of old people in place telling us, that’s not how theatre works darling. And it was like, whatever, fuck you. You know, like, we had that kind of maybe in your world, not in my world. So anything can happen. So, I just have a lot of faith in them and they need to have faith in themselves.

Hope  Yeah. That’s beautiful. I love that. And I think that’s so apt. And I really appreciate that concept too. If we’re not providing something that fuels the audience, we won’t – right?

Denise Well, you know, it’s, it does, it might obtain to do, you know again reading. Sometimes I’m like, you guys know this and they’re like no. You don’t know that? Okay. You should know that, like you know, if you read about commercial theatre, which is interestingly enough, what something I love reading about commercial theatre and how it happened and why things were hits. And it’s really, has a lot to do with the audience. Like, you know take the temperature of your own audience. You know, go okay, that’s the fourth audience who didn’t laugh. I thought it was funny. We thought it was funny. Nobody’s laughing. Why? Why aren’t they laughing? Like, figure that out and don’t just keep force feeding them. Unless, you know, it’s like, it’s different if it’s like, oh, they kill themselves laughing and then they kind of were tempered and then they kill themselves laughing. That’s not what I mean. I just mean when it’s like, yeah, this isn’t working keep figuring out why.