Interview with Ravi Jain
Interview with Hope McIntyre and Ravi Jain
Hope Again, thank you for doing this. And just to start, I’m interested in knowing how long you’ve worked in your current role, and I guess that for you, like I said, multiple hats so that would be your role with Why Not, but also as a director.
Ravi So as a director, I guess I would say I started that in university. Like the first show I directed was in 2001, and that was because I, you know, I like making theatre and I like bringing people together. And I liked having a point of view on a story I really, yes, I started really because I love teams like team sports and like bringing people together is always very about that feeling. In the early days for me. So, 2001, I would say it started. Because I was always like a creator, not just an actor. I was always involved in things where I was part of a collaborative process. So, it was very simple for me to kind of end up on that side of the table, let’s say. And then I started Why Not Theatre in 2007? So about, 15 years ago now. 16, it’s 2023. And I started that out of necessity and then desire. Like, you know, I had trained a lot in the States and in Europe and people forming companies was quite common. But in particular, I was really inspired by a British company and a French company. The British company Complicité, and the French company is Théâtre du Soleil, both very international companies, both ensemble based at the time and really about people from different cultures coming together to tell stories in really new ways. And so, I always wanted to make something like that and so did that.
Hope Excellent. Anything in terms of the pathway to getting to where you are today that you want to talk a little bit more about – in terms of like your training or the route you took in terms of getting into this field.
Ravi Yeah. I mean, I trained at a lot of places. I bounced around quite a bit. So, I went to a drama school in London, England, called LAMDA right out of high school. And it was a very traditional acting school, classical based. And, you know, the best thing about being in London at that time, 1999, and I just saw so much theatre. I would see maybe three or four shows a week. I was exhausted because our hours were insane, but we got free tickets and it was so cheap to go see a theatre. And I saw, you know, I saw a lot of international work because London was bringing stuff from everywhere. So I saw stuff in different languages. I saw great actors like Maggie Smith and Brian Cox, I saw great British actor Ralph Fiennes, I saw great British actors on stage. So I really saw, what I was learning in action, but also like with creative, creativity, was beyond the school and beyond the… their artistry I could see. And then I saw work by Complicité that changed my life. It was this physical theatre, this storytelling that was unlike anything I was learning at school. And so, when I came back to school, I was like, why are we doing that? It’s like, I don’t think this is the place for me, because that’s, that’s the shit. So, I left England and I went to NYU, and New York is an amazing teacher. New York, it teaches you to hustle. And like, I just saw so much stuff and I was in an off off-Broadway sort of dance theatre company with, you know, I was 21 years old and I’m with these, like now 40 year old artists who are like real New York artists who have jobs and are doing this on the side and they’re tired and jaded but still have the love to make work. And particularly at that time, it was just after 9/11 in New York, so it was really an intense… art meant something, had a relationship to politics immediately and all that to say, so I was part of a lot of companies. Part of… I was in a company, I should say. And then I was like working with teachers who were all really important to the New York scene in the sixties, and they were all talking about companies and how to run them and how to be part of them. So, I was just in that circle. But the fundamental was that it was born out of a necessity for a group of people to come together to share work. It wasn’t about the business side that emerged kind of on my own, but it was about the political side of what it means to be part of a company, to be committed to a group of individuals, to train, to tell stories like that. That’s a political act. And so, that was a lot of the motivation of really like why. And I remember when I was early days, 21 years old, I was in a workshop with Anne Bogart and she told the story of how she met Ariane Mnouchkine. You know, these two heroes of mine meeting in this fictional story being told by Anne, and Anne said, Anne was trying to figure out, she was just getting the opportunity to make SITI Company and Mnouchkine said something to the effect of like, Why? You know, why wouldn’t you want a company? Why? What can anyone do without a company? You need a group of people. The revolution doesn’t happen without, by one person. And it’s like, it’s heartbreaking and tragic and it breaks your heart every day, but it’s the only way to get anything done. So very early, that was impressed upon me. And then I went to the Lecoq School in France eventually. And that is a real. It’s a place where ensemble and company is fundamentally core to the work. And just so many companies are formed out of the school. You want to work with other people, you want to work with other ideas, other cultures. It was the heart of everything, because no one does anything alone.
Hope That’s incredible and that’s a great story in terms of why to form a company. Is there anything else that you attribute to your success, your ability to keep the company going for this long, to continue working in this industry?
Ravi I mean, I would say art has been always first. I think the art has been centre, you know, that spirit of what are we doing and what status quo we’re challenging? What story are we telling to be part of a conversation that is larger than the one we’re having? That’s been the core. I think that’s been the thing that sustained us and then that bridged out to wanting to make bigger change on a bigger scale. And so that art making and that change making really helped solidify, let’s say, a kind of reputation. And then the business side is like fundamental. Like in Canada, learning how to navigate the granting system is, you know, really important. And, you know, there’s been a lot of growth for me in that because there’s other levels of granting things that you can hit. An access to, you know, philanthropic side, banks, corporate, all that garbage, you know, like that came very late for me when the company, you know, I’d say in year ten, did we really start maximizing what all that was. So before all that, you know, was what we were doing, what the spirit and the energy of the work was doing. And in order to do it, we had to like build a lot of partnerships and be a good partner and get other people to pay for the thing we wanted to do.
Hope Absolutely. Yeah. And thinking back to all of that is there anything you wish you had know when you started?
Ravi Well, that’s a hard thing to speak to, because I know it now.
Hope Absolutely. And it might be nothing. I mean, a lot of people have said that they wouldn’t have gotten to where they are right now if they had known certain things sooner, right?
Ravi I wonder. The one thing I think about and because I’m in a struggle right now with this, a generational shift around work life balance. And I don’t always understand it, but I would say, maybe I appreciate it and maybe if I were to go back, I lost you know, I lost out on a lot of friends’ weddings and big events and friendships and key family events because I was working, because the hours that this job requires or I think requires demanded so much of me and I put a lot of time and energy there and sacrifice a lot of relationships and life. I don’t think I would necessarily change that, but I would think about it differently if I had an option. Maybe, although, you know, I say that, but I had a lot of people tell me that along the way. So, you know.
Hope Yeah.
Ravi That’s one thing I’d be curious to investigate a bit more. But that young guy I don’t think would have listened.
Hope No, no. Well, and maybe looking at it from the other perspective in terms of the next question is like, is there a gap that you notice in the knowledge of emerging artists as they come out? And I know you’ve taught as well, so do you see that there’s something missing for those who are just starting their careers?
Ravi Yeah – Art. Like a relationship to art that is deeper than, it’s not fair to say superficial, but it’s just deeper, a deeper connection to art. And I would say, history of theatre and performance and what it means and what it could be. And I think a lot of people, emerging artists, younger artists, I would say particularly artists in Canada that I meet don’t necessarily have a reference for movements. Political movements where the arts was like… theatre in particular was central to. So I think of like the Group Theatre in New York and Harold Clurman and what they did to be part of workers movements and how the theatre played a role in the stories that were told or the work of Dario Fo and how in Italy it was tied to, you know, poor people, working class people, the news of the day and issues that were really mobilizing people beyond the imaginable. Or in Chile. In Kenya. In India, in Thailand. Theatre has been at the centre of revolutions and because the government was afraid of it, because it was telling a particular story… And so, I think that a lot of emerging people’s idea is Stratford and Shaw, which, no shade on them, it’s just, there’s a lot more to this puzzle that can be told. So, I think that history and then even ancient history, like actually understanding Japanese theatre, African theatre, various African diasporatheatre, Indian theatre. Cultures where this has been much deeper than, you know, whatever, some Canadian new play in the seventies. And what’s more important with that for me, though, is an understanding that those traditions come with a formal search. So, there’s the content and there’s the form. And when you start to investigate that, you become more open to what theatre can possibly be. Masks, dance, theatre, music, the merging and melding and meeting of these points. That’s how we told stories for centuries. Because of ritual and community and gods and all of these things that were real, they weren’t ideas. And they’re in our bodies as people. So, it’s just a deeper root and connection to the politics and that we’ve been doing this for so much longer and in so many more ways.
Hope Absolutely. That’s amazing. And do you feel that there’s been a role for universities or post-secondary training institutions in better preparing folks in that way or other ways to enter the –
Ravi 100%. Yeah. I mean, I think that providing some kind of access point to be able to touch those things in some kind of way, so that the curiosity is sparked and then that individual can go research and do more investigation. You know, I think emerging artists, too… I think that this is a profession of curious people and that curiosity will keep you alive. It’s not getting the gig or getting the call from the agent. And those things are, that, they’re all fine, but they’re not necessarily thinking about the long term.
Hope Absolutely. Yeah. It’s interesting because the next question is about how you get the work right? But, because I think that’s what the students, in teaching a business of course, they’re all taking this class because they want to know how to get work, like how to work in the industry. So, from your perspective, any thoughts on either how to secure work or perhaps for you, it’s not about securing work.
Ravi I always tell people you have to… we are like sharks. Sharks die if they stop moving. And you have to make… talking about your work is kind of not always as effective as someone seeing you work. And so, get out, like, get, do the thing and get people to it. If you’re… get in that show and be amazing and get people to see you in that show or get people to talk about you in that show or direct that show and get everyone to see it. Or design that show, whatever it is you’re doing. The work must speak for itself. Your work… that’s where I come back to your artistry, that has to be sharp. That has to be of the highest level and best level that you can do it. Don’t be someone else, but like, push. Get us to imagine and dream something new and then we will. Or, if you want to do it the same way everybody else does it, do it better. Just do it better. Get people talking, people seeing the work, experiencing the work that has to happen. And be creative to do that. You know, if they won’t come to you, do it on their doorstep. You know, don’t limit yourself, you know, like you want to get in a show with me. You know, ring my doorbell at Christmas and do a monologue at my door instead of singing a carol, you know? I don’t know. You have to, really have to go out of your – use your imagination. Don’t limit your imagination. Don’t just rely on submitting for generals, waiting for the call, you know. Butt in line. Cut in line. Crash the thing. Run into the director at the restaurant you know without getting creepy and stalky. There are ways to show someone you want something, you know, you care about, it’s not that you want it. You care about it.
Hope Yeah. Yeah.
Ravi Don’t be afraid to be passionate.
Hope Yeah, well, I find what you’re saying there, it leads right into the next question about what specifically people need to do. And what do you want to see from someone who wants to work with you?
Ravi Inspire me. Show me, you care. You have a sense of humour. You know, you’re fun. You are imaginative. You want to play. And you can think for yourself, and you can be critical. You can be very critical and thoughtful. And you have things to say, you know, on the news. That was one of the best advice, I was doing a workshop with an American teacher in Italy, and we were living in Italy for six weeks, doing commedia dell’arte, and one of these days he was like, does everybody know International Tribune? It was an American paper. It was like a version of The New York Times, but it’s their international paper. And that was it then. And he was like, you want to, like, strengthen your training, you need to read this every day. What’s going on? This is 2001 when newspapers were real. You need to do this. You need to be part of this world and know what’s going on. This is your food. Yeah. Be interested, be invested and curious about the world. The real world.
Hope Yeah. And how do they demonstrate that to you. I guess it’s about coming back to what you said about having you come see their work or finding an imaginative, creative way to show you.
Ravi Get me to have coffee with you. How to do that? How to wrangle me down. Get someone I know and trust to talk to them. You know, like, find a way. Connect. That’s like anything, connect. Make a relationship and don’t be afraid to again, annoy me with emails. Hi, Ravi, can we meet for coffee? Because I’ll do that. I’ll go, hey, get back in touch with me in March. And if they don’t, then they didn’t do it. And if they did, they want to meet. Okay, let’s find that time here. Get back to me in this, you know, Daniel Brooks said that to me. You know, he’s a Canadian director. I wanted to work with him. I remember I it was some crazy story that I have where I basically, you know, said I met Rick Miller. It was a one man show with Rick Miller. And Rick said, look, if you want to be involved, you should email Daniel. So I emailed Daniel, long email and said, hey, can I work with you? He said, get back to me in like two months. Two months and a day, I emailed him again, was like, hey, I’m serious about this project. He said, he kept blowing me off and I was on tour somewhere and he was going to start in three weeks and I was like, I’m still serious. And then I kept emailing and he said meet me at the library on this day. It was the day before rehearsals, and then I showed up, met him. He told me some things. He said, okay, we start tomorrow. And I was like, okay, I just had to be ready. I didn’t know anything. I didn’t know what the schedule was. I didn’t know anything. I just made it and just didn’t stop. And it was always respectful. I was like, look, if I’m being annoying, tell me. Sorry, I’m not being, I don’t want to be annoying, but I want this.
Hope So that persistence.
Ravi Yeah. And always have a sense of humour about it. Don’t take it personally if he was like, fuck off, you know, like, I don’t know. There’s a way it wouldn’t get to that. There’s a way to be respectful and persistent.
Hope Absolutely. Yeah. And are there any resources that you would recommend to students or those who are emerging into this field, like things that you’ve mentioned already, reading the paper and looking up the history of these movements and companies? Are there other things that you would suggest?
Ravi Resources? Yeah. I mean. Letters to a Young Poet by Rilke. There’s a great textbook that was important to me, but it may not be for everyone but Radical Street Performance by a professor named Jan Cohen-Cruz. It’s a textbook, so it could be pricey. Oh and I think Anne Bogart’s A Director Prepares is a really good book, even if you’re not a director, I think it’s a good book. And I would say like, go see shows, go see as much work as you can. And if you like the show, stay after and meet those artists in the lobby and talk to them. How did you make that show? What was that process like? Oh, my God, that was amazing. Can I buy you a drink? Can we meet later? Can I meet the director? Go to the stage door. Talk to them. See the work. Talk to the… those will be your collaborators.
Hope Absolutely. Yeah.
Ravi Ask yourself, who do you want to work with? What are the qualities of someone you want to work with? That’s probably the same for everyone. A curious person who’s got energy and is like, exciting. And brings energy.
Hope That’s, that’s great. And any other advice that you would like… I’m sure you’ve been asked by many a student and many emerging artists. You know what do they need to know entering this profession?
Ravi Just why you want to do this. Just know that. That’ll keep you – warm. Like really know. And it’s going to change. And that’s okay. And it should change. But deeply invest in that pursuit. And it’ll all come. It will. And don’t think that there’s an end of the line here. It’s not a straight line.
Hope Yeah, absolutely. And when you think about the future of theatre and, you know, I don’t necessarily use the word trends, but things that are changing and shifting within the industry right now., Are there things that you’re excited about or things that you feel the next generation should be aware of…
Ravi I would say there’s a lot of opportunity right now for difference that there wasn’t before. And I think the thing I would encourage people to do is, like get to know the history of how uniquely important this moment is and how it emerged. And that’s everything, from civil rights to people who had to fight to have their voices heard onstage and to have their beings and identities seen – as human. And we’re in a shift now that is interesting, but also potentially dangerous and looking at the history will help us figure out which path we take.
Hope Yeah. That’s great. The next questions are very specific to the business side, but also the roles that you play. And a lot of this industry is self-employment, right? So often that’s a huge kind of wake up call, you know, for people tackling this. Are there challenges to managing your own career or yourself as a business that you would want to share?
Ravi Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think number one is, you know, making a living like you have to live and you have to figure out how you’re going to sustain that. And with that, I would say think about transferable skills that your craft can apply to. So, first craft is teaching, public speaking, helping people public speak. What are the… you actually know more than just acting. You know, you have a lot more tools and skills in you, that can… you can sell your wares for bread. So be resourceful about what you know. Don’t just pigeonhole yourself. Well, I’m just an actor. Things like that. And that’s okay to use what you know in other ways. That doesn’t mean you’re no longer an actor. That doesn’t mean you’re any less of an actor. You just have to figure out ways to sustain a living with the things that you know. The second thing is, you know, consider, depending on how money works and if you can get free advice from some kind of an accountant, if it makes sense for you to get a business number so that your taxes and your work and your life can be kind of managed in an efficient, smart way. And you might be able to claim things like clothing, meals, makeup, because you are a business now. And if you can get some good advice, I would suggest doing that because it could result in returns to you. Yeah. Just make your life easier and you can bill people and, you know, become a professional.
Ravi So then, I think as an actor, you know, something to figure out is… you’re going to hear no a lot more times than you’re going to hear yes. And so how to stay positive in that. And how to also keep yourself, your skills sharp. What can you do? Dancers take classes. What can an actor do, or a designer do? How can you keep your skills sharp? Self-employed also, you know. Like I said, think out of the box to get the jobs. Be creative and, or make your jobs. So then look at the grants and you know, the grants that we have in Canada are pretty amazing. There’s always a municipal level, a provincial level and a federal level. Those are three levels of government funding that, you know, not many people have. Especially south of the border, they got nothing. So how to maximize that? To support your work, support your ideas, go research, get online and research those things. They all have a website. It’s not hard to do. It takes time. And that’s money that you can access to be able to do your art.
Hope And that kind of segues into the self-producing, right? Like making your own work and getting those grants to put on your own shows. And whether that’s a good way to get experience and visibility.
Ravi 100%. 100%. That’s a fantastic way for people to… because you’re doing something. You’re doing something and I can see it. Again, it will speak much more than you doing a monologue for me or you telling me about your work. Or same for directing or designing. When I see it, now we can have a conversation and we can talk about the choices you made and why you made those choices. And we get into all those other things. So yeah, I think self-producing is a great thing. If you can take the risk and if you can gather all the resources and do that, you learn a lot in that process.
Hope Absolutely. And would you say because, you know, I think we’re in a time and place now where there’s a lot of re-evaluation about whether there’s certain gigs you shouldn’t take. So, as we send these young new artists out into the world, are there other things that they should consider? Where they might say no to a gig or what they should, you know, understand before accepting a contract.
Ravi Well, I think that’s for everyone to decide on their own. And I think that the thing that should help them decide is like, I mean, number one, is this place going to treat me with respect? Are these people in this place going to treat me with respect? Hands down. Are they going to, let me be my fullest self and honour who I am in this process? I would say start there and then go beyond, you know, what are the values of this institution, and these people, what are the values of these people. I mean, I think that’s the thing about self-producing, too. It’s, self-employment is a lonely place. And how do you build a community? How do you build people to work with? It doesn’t have to be a permanent company, but a group of people, so you’re not alone.
Hope Mm hmm. And that beautifully kind of segues to the difference of being employed by a theatre and running your own company as you’ve done so beautifully. What should folks know about how theatres operate? I think sometimes our young students get out there and they don’t understand what some of those limitations or some of those challenges are for theatre companies.
Ravi Yeah, I would say some challenges. The resources are finite. No matter how big the budget of the theatre. Everybody is going to cry poor. Having said that, there’s always money. It’s both. There’s always money for an idea. As long as you can convince that AD or that ED or whomever that the value, the idea has merit, it’s going to benefit them in some kind of way. It’s going to be exciting and innovative or whatever. There’s not enough money and there’s always money. And so don’t be shy. Don’t let it stop you. Don’t let the idea of there’s not enough money stop you from asking. Let them tell you no. I think that all those places, all these companies and theatres… and who doesn’t want to work with young, fresh talent and good ideas. So, you’re doing them a favour? Don’t always come with your hat in hand. You’re doing them a favour. I’m fine, I’m bringing you amazing new talent. You will be the one to have discovered me. I’m doing you a favour. That’s your job. Depending on who you talk to, if it’s a producing company, like, you know, a theatre. Where are you based again? In Winnipeg.
Hope Winnipeg? Yeah.
Ravi So, yeah, Royal Manitoba Theatre, so their job is to make theatre. Their job is to present and produce theatre. So, you are doing them a favour by bringing them your new play. And you have to help them see that it will be the next big thing. So they might not see that. And you disagree. And so how do you deal with that obstacle creatively? And if they won’t, we can’t beat them, you know, do it yourself. Show them. Produce it and get it seen and show them. Yeah. So, you’re doing them a favour? Just a job. There’s never enough money. There’s always enough money. Again, the work is going to speak for itself.
Hope Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Ravi The work and what you do will really sing. And even if people don’t like what you do, it’s okay. If you do, keep going. Be humble and learn and, you know, take stuff along the way. But sometimes you got to. It takes a while to show people that there’s a promised land. How do you get them to believe in what you’re doing in your voice and it’s not a straight line. I always tell… one of my favourite painters is Van Gogh. I went to the museum in Amsterdam… and he died extremely poor. He couldn’t afford paint anymore. He died and he’s gone for a while. And his sister, finds in the attic all these paintings. And she’s going to burn, she’s going to throw them all out. And she calls a buddy who comes up and is like, no, these are Van Gogh’s paintings, they’re amazing. Let me try and sell them. And then he becomes Van Gogh, and he has more money than God. But when he was, when he was alive, he was ahead of his time. It just wasn’t in this context. And it’s a tragic story, but what a beautiful story, that sometimes as an artist, you’re not understood right now and you still have to forge ahead. His passion is insane. You know, passion literally drove him to keep making work. And how lucky for us and how terrible for him. But that is, you know, again, come back to the why for you. Why are you doing this?
Hope Oh, absolutely. Anything you want to say about governance and the way it is in Canada? I mean, we have this board structure with our theatre companies as charitable organizations. Any thoughts in that relationship between staff for the theatre company, the artists? And then there’s this board entity.
Ravi I think that those are structures that can be very helpful and they’re all structures that can be very negative. And it really depends on the team of people that are working together. And I think the thing is… people assume a way of working in a structural… structure of working the way that those teams that you mentioned, staff, board, management, they assume relationships and ways of working that aren’t always the truth. And like anything, if you are an artist, you think, well, these are characters in this play – staff, board, management. What is their relationship? What could their relationship be? How do they work together? What is the story they’re trying to tell that brings them together? And how do we think creatively about these relationships? We can do anything we want. There are, of course, there are legitimate legal rules we need to follow, but we can be very creative about how we achieve those goals. And I think that the mistake a lot of people make is they take the structure that the big institution has and they apply it to the small and they are not the same. They don’t need to be the same and they shouldn’t be the same. And you’re limiting yourself. At the speed of which an institution can move and the rules that they have. Because, yeah, they’re tracking a ton of money, like they have a lot of things that they need to do. But the small, you know, doesn’t need that. It can be much freer and more creative and I think that’s an important thing to understand. And then I think, also don’t make companies all the time. Don’t make a company until you’re sure you need to be a company. What is, ask the question, what is a company? Start there. Talk to me about what is a company. Is it a group of artists working together to tell a story? Is it a group of artists that will live together for four years in the forests? You know, again, this is where you learn about Grotowski in Poland and the work they were doing or Gurgenidze. Like these strange, not strange, these people who dedicated themselves to very different ways of living, communal, communist, communal, communal living. Their politics was tied to the way they made the process of making art.
Hope Yes.
Ravi Or is it a group of people who are going to work together to tell stories? Is it a financial organization led by an artistic director that needs to have a board approved budget because they have a subscriber base of X, you know, like no judgment on any of this. What the hell is a company and what do you want it to be and build that. So, don’t assume it needs to be something.
Hope Yeah, that’s great. And I think you’re right. Too often there’s a this is how the structure works and it’s prescriptive. So I’ve talked to a lot of emerging artists who are like, should I be looking to work full time for a company or just continue self-employment, freelance. What are some of those considerations?
Ravi It depends what you’re doing full time in that job. Is it what you want to do? Is it what you want to be doing? You know, I can’t really speak to that because I don’t know the context of that person. I guess I would say this, we didn’t incorporate as a company. I was a sole proprietorship for the first five years of the company.
Hope Really?
Ravi Didn’t incorporate until the fifth year. And then we didn’t become charitable until the 10th year. And that growth was part of how we were growing and what kind of access to resource we could get and that we needed to do that. And the team I was, we were, I was building, you know, we needed it, when we needed it. We didn’t come out of the gate with that because we were making work. All the energy was making work. And then the people stuck around.
Ravi And the relationships became real and we formed them. And then we had to be together.
Hope Yeah.
Ravi And it’s only now in my 15th year, 16th year after the pandemic. So let’s say pandemic 2020 was probably when it all started happening. We had first, the first time turnover and in the last, you know, two years, we changed an executive director, like we’d never done that before. Like we actually started turning people over, and they’ve got new jobs. They went to university, they went on to other things and that’s amazing. But that wasn’t from the start. The relationships were long lasting. And rooted in the work. And each other.
Hope Which is incredible. Yeah, absolutely. And obviously, a testament if people want to stay. There’s something about it that is working.
Ravi Yeah. And we were all trying to figure something out together. We were all invested in solving this riddle and too stubborn to let go. You know, and it’s great. It’s great. The why.
Hope Yeah. The why. Yeah. And as a producer, I guess that just segues into the questions of leadership. And it’s challenging to be that sole proprietor when you started out and to have that, that weight of leadership. Any thoughts on what leadership means to you and why you feel you’ve been successful at keeping those, that collaboration and engagement with people who clearly want to work with you.
Ravi I mean, I think leadership is a mix of, I think you need to have confidence and it’s a fine line between confidence and ego. And a lot of Canadians will tell you, you’re in ego land, but really, you’re just confident. That is a really, and that’s something you got to push against. It’s okay to have a point of view and care about it and defend it. Sorry, egotistical. I think leadership is a balance of listening and pushing. And I think they’re like, one’s receiving, one’s moving something forward, externalizing. I think that communication is really important. Integrity is really important. You got to be your word, as best you can. Accountability is fundamental, make mistakes everyone’s going to make mistakes. But hold yourself accountable. Learn from it. Generosity. And empowering people to let them find the way. It’s not all you. You know, be part of a team. I don’t know, I guess the thing I always come to Franco Boni, who’s been a huge mentor to me. He used to be at the Theatre Centre. What it is, leadership is not ever taken. It’s like bestowed upon you. It’s earned just by, so it’s like you don’t… it’s not like you want to grab the leadership pole. It’s your actions, that thrust you. It chooses you. And then in that role, you need to hold the space, hold everyone, and hold their fears. And hold their joys and you know, help us see that we’re trying to achieve something. And yeah, you’ve got to make tough calls. And sometimes you make the right one and sometimes you don’t. And hold yourself accountable.
Hope Absolutely. And that seems to segue to the role of a director as well and in terms of holding the space in the rehearsal room. And I know you spoke beautifully about that, and I thought the Siminovitch craft of directing presentations you all did were fabulous. And yeah, I think that’s really helpful for emerging directors to really see how the four of you work and all very different. But also at the core of it, the artistry. Is there anything else that you would want to say specifically to those emerging directors about holding that space and their role in the room?
Ravi Yeah. I mean, I think that it’s like our job to create the space where people can feel safe for something to happen. And safe, you know, safe is also, a funny word. It’s like, nobody’s life should ever be put in danger. Nobody’s feeling should be put in danger yet. We have to find a line of risk. And so how do we find that line? That makes sense and has trust in the room for us to be able to do that. Yeah, but you want to create an environment in which someone can be so free to surprise you.
Hope That’s great. And then the last question is, just because this comes up a lot, you know, often our students will go out there and they come back to us. They’re like, why didn’t you tell us these things before we graduated? And one of their questions is often about Equity. Should we join? Should we not join? What is the role of these associations? How important are they? Do you have any thoughts in regards to… or advice on whether that’s something that they need. I think they feel that there’s a path they’re supposed to take when they leave us, right? They’re supposed to book a gig or to join Equity and follow a certain road.
Ravi Yeah, I mean, that’s the first thing to challenge. But, you know, Equity. That’s a long, longer story. But I think that sadly, that is what you need if you want to work with an institution eventually. I think there’s like, you get three free passes. It’s annoying because you have to pay a yearly fee. They will take money out of your contract. You know, I’m not, you know… but you can you get certain benefits from it. I remember asking similar questions and for me it came down to just like having to work other places. And then eventually I ended up becoming one because I was working at institutions. I don’t have a clear answer for that, other than whatever you do shouldn’t get in the way of you working. Whatever you need to do. But I would address the- why didn’t you tell us this before we went out there? It’s like, I think, people should know school is just one place of learning and that they need to talk to more actors or talk to more directors. Go talk and ask those questions to real people doing it. No shade to any teacher
Hope No, no, no.
Ravi Working professionals, who are dealing with the challenges that they will face. Ask them those questions. Go be fearless to meet them. They will be your collaborators. They are the ones who will say, you know who you should hire? Hope. I just met this young new artist named Hope. We had coffee. She told me these great ideas. I think you should give her an audition. That’s how this shit works. Or stay away from Hope. Oh, my God. She took me for coffee, and all she did was talk about racist things. She has no idea, you know, like, at all. Meet those people, talk to, the more you can talk and get out there, talk to who’s out there, and then also the people who are in your class, because those are your colleagues. So that was the best thing about, you know, NYU or Lecoq. You know, we went through something together and I see them in the world and we have a relationship. We did something together. I ask them for advice. What are you struggling with? What are you working on? How did you get that gig? I want to get that gig. How do you work with that theatre? I want to work, you know, like we bug each other.
Hope It’s great. And it’s so much of what you talk about, it’s about relationships. Right? And that’s the key part of this, building those relationships, which you can do with your classmates. But then you have to also do it outside of that university structure. Yeah.
Ravi Oh, God. Yeah. One, your classmates probably know someone that you should also talk to. You know like, it’s all network. A real network, not a Facebook network.
Hope Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Anything else that you want to add? This is incredible. Like there’s so much. What’s been so valuable as I talk to different people is the very diverse and exciting perspectives. But there’s some through lines that also appear, which is fabulous.
Ravi That’s interesting.
Hope Yeah.
Ravi Yeah. I guess the last thing I’d add is, you know, I feel like I have a lot of empathy for this generation of people because everything’s kind of harder and more expensive and living in a city is a lot more expensive and I think the biggest pressure, I think, one of the biggest influences, an invisible influence to them, I think is marketing and like Apple, everything. And so, everything is perfect and streamlined and instant. And that is not art, that is a marketed commodity to sell to people for thousands of dollars. Art is messy. It’s complicated. It doesn’t make sense. It can make sense. It can surprise you. And it has a different kind of beauty and shine that marketing does not always have. And so I find a lot of people focus on their headshot or their resume or the logo of their company or the branding of their company, but they don’t have a product, which is the art. And the product for the self-employed is your artistry, your voice as a designer, as a director. Your uniqueness is your voice. And it’s a myth also that even to say your uniqueness. Your uniqueness would be to be okay with your voice, actually. That would make you extremely unique. And those are the actors who are the strongest. Those are the artists who are the strongest. They’re just okay to be themselves. And the market is really a challenge because it’s all instant. Like, I’ve got this new shiny computer. It’s amazing. I love it. And I can create really beautiful marketing things on it. And make it look good. But it won’t hold. And that as an artist is the thing I think this generation really needs to see through and cut through. TikTok, Twitter, all the stuff that… I’m not judging it. They’re all awesome things and they get you things too. You can be a YouTube star, whatever. Like, there’s a lot of bonus to it. But I’m talking about the deeper roots of the invisible barrier of – it needs to be perfect. And now, we are an old profession, that’s, you know, natural. It’s the time of a tree growing. You know, in dirt. We all live in cities where, you know, the tree lined street is instant because the condo developer pop trees in. We didn’t see the tree grow. We won’t see how long that tree took to grow. It’s just instant and it’s beautiful. And I want to move in – for only $300,000 down, I can get a condo. It’s all instant. And that is not the job. That is not this industry. And you might even find yourself with an instant hit and then nothing after. So, it’s that time, that sense of time in that marketing blitz. Instance, it’s not. And that will affect how you, your work, your art.
Hope Yeah, Yeah. And I think that responds so much to the desire for kind of an instant… as soon as I finish my training I should instantly be out there working. But that the training continues, right?
Ravi But that’s what I would say. Yeah. That instant. Yes. Go work but that work is training. It’s part of your training. I’m still training. So learning, as you just said, it’s just I want to get experience points.
Hope Yeah, that’s great. I love that. That image of the tree, the time of a tree growing, right? Yeah. It’s great.
Ravi It takes time. And care.
Hope Yes. Yeah.
Ravi And a community of things to come together to make it live. The water, the soil. So much is work is done in the sun. It’s not doing it on its own. It’s not plop.