Interview with Yolanda Bonnell

Interview with Hope McIntyre and Yolanda Bonnell

Hope Let’s just start with how long you’ve worked in your current role and I’m thinking your role as a performer / creator.

Yolanda Yeah, well, two different answers I guess for performer/creator – performer, and then creator. Do you mean professionally?  I guess you mean professionally.

Hope Yes, although that in and of itself is a grey area. Whatever you feel… how long you have been
committing your time to this work.

Yolanda I’ll go from how long I’ve been making a living out of it, because I think that’s where the difference lies, is when it becomes your career. I started performing, I went to theatre school at Humber and I graduated in 2015 and in 2016 I was cast in The Crackwalker at Factory Theatre. And that was directed by Judith Thompson and I was the first Indigenous Actor to play the Indigenous role, which was wild. That was technically my first professional, quote unquote professional role, so I have been performing professionally since 2016 and similarly with creation, I guess it was the same time, because bug also happened in 2016. I started writing it while I was in school, but really, I have been creating since I was a kid and it’s always been something that I’ve been drawn to – storytelling and creation – and I’ve always sort of been excited about it. But I didn’t know when I went to theatre school that I was a playwright, I didn’t know that was an option. Coming from where I came from, plays weren’t… I didn’t just go to the library and read a play. I didn’t know that was a thing. The only thing I read was Shakespeare in high school. But then when I started doing community theatre that’s where I was like oh, oh, oh, of course. But even then, in north western Ontario, in my time, there wasn’t access to theatre in a big spectrum. It was very isolated and dedicated to Norm Foster plays and so I didn’t know the breath of work and didn’t even know that I could do something like that until we had to write our own solo shows in school and then I realized what I was able to do after that and then it kind of just snowballed from there. That was a long answer, so probably, 6-7, 5-6 years.

Hope Yes, which is amazing, thinking about all you’ve done in that time.

Yolanda Yes, it’s kind of wild.

Hope And as tends to happen when you get talking, which is great, you kind of segued beautifully into the next question, which was your pathway into it. You mentioned Humber, so that’s more a traditional kind of training, was there anything else in terms of your pathway into this that you think is relevant?

Yolanda Yes, I mean when I was a kid I did all of the things, I memorized all the words to Labyrinth the movie and would act it out with my sister and I remember there was a feeling I had when doing this, there was something, I just remember feeling something. And when I started, when I was able to do it in school, and then high school, you know the musicals in high school and then the performances in high school, there was something that just sort of cracked open. I’m saying this because everybody’s entrance into performing and creating is, starts at different times. When I was younger I didn’t know, there were these little moments that happened that opened it further and further for me, and one of those moments was in high school, in 10th grade, we did a show called Uniform which was a student written show and we had collectively created this piece that was directed by a student and it was fantastical and there were these dance numbers. I had never in my life seen or experienced anything like it and so again I was like, I really need to be doing this. But the opportunities for teenagers outside of school, for performing and creating in north western Ontario were at that time nothing. So I had no way in and it wasn’t until my mid twenties where I started working with community theatre groups and then I started doing burlesque and then I did more community theatre shows and I realized it was the only thing that was making me happy. I couldn’t do anything else. I suffer from a lot of trauma and PTSD and mental health issues, so for someone like me to be doing a job or a position that doesn’t feed me it’s really, really difficult to exist. So, when I discovered that creation and performance lifted something inside of me, the role felt right, the storytelling role felt correct. I could only see that. And so, we did a performance of Rent in Thunder Bay and it changed my life. I realized it was the pin that sort of went if I need to move away, and I have to do this. So, a year later I jumped on a Greyhound, I mean I planned it out, but I was like I am moving to Toronto and I’m going to become an actor and I’m doing this, and I’m going to see and I might fail and that’s ok too, but I have to at least try. And it felt like things were against me at that time, because really, you know I’m fat, I’m brown, I’m queer, I don’t look like the standard Ingénue on stage. I’m like I’m going to end up being a tree or something. My expectations were quite small. But my friends at the time were going to music school and so theatre school hadn’t even occurred to me until I realized they were going to school for a similar thing so I started looking into theatre schools and then that whole thing happened and then it was over from there. I was like here we go; this is it. My mind was blown, you know I started volunteering at theatres when I first moved here too and that was huge. Huge. Volunteering for front of house – I recommend to anyone starting out in this industry to do that, go volunteer to be front of house, you see all kinds of amazing incredible work, sometimes not great, but you see it for free. You meet all kinds of people, you network with all kinds of people, and I saw a show that changed the way I created for the rest of time. So, yeah, it was the experience of schooling, of like finding escape, it becoming reality that this was my role and going to pursue that in whatever way I could. And then, yeah, school happened, and then graduation happened, and then, and here we go.

Hope That’s incredible. I love that. I love The Labyrinth, I loved that movie when I was a kid too.

Yolanda Oh my gosh, I was obsessed, like, obsessed.

Hope Amazing. Thank you for sharing that. That’s incredible and exactly the kind of thing our students need to hear. So, what do you attribute to your success? I mean you mentioned volunteering, the networking, is there anything else that helped you get from the training to where you are now?

Yolanda I started working at Native Earth Performing Arts, which in and of itself for me was massive. Part of it was that I was meeting tons of incredible Indigenous artists coming through, but the bigger thing was that I started to understand how a theatre company worked. So, I was jurying grants and jurying the festival, and helping to curate it. And then I watched, and eventually I was drawing up contracts and I was planning tours. I learned production skills which as any, you know, young artist, any artist, no age, doesn’t matter, any artist going out into the industry, if you’re having to produce your own work, these skills are incredibly useful. Learning how to jury grants was so helpful for me as I was able to learn how to write grants to sustain my practice. And talk with other artists – talk with people in production, artistic associates, artistic directors. I think that the theatre industry is incredibly fractured and problematic in a lot of ways, but when I was starting out, it’s really good to know how to work it. Work it and work within it, so that you know what the things are you need to change if you’re wanting to go down that path. I don’t think I would be able to do the work I do today if I didn’t know how a theatre institution ran. And so, for me, that was a big one. And it was my joe job. It was my day job, was showing up at that office every day and learning how to produce. That was huge, but also because I was meeting artists I was also learning from artists from their own practices and watching them. So, I think that a big part of it was getting a job within the industry which isn’t great for everybody, not everybody likes to do that because there’s sometimes no semblance of separation between the work and oneself and that can get really tricky, but I mean that probably goes along with networking and again volunteering and working within the industry. It all kind of goes along with the same thing. I think the other part for me was that I was doing both things. I was creating and performing at the same time, they both kind of leapt at once and I think it’s difficult for artists if you’re only doing one stream. I think it’s possible and every artist is different and every artist has different abilities and capabilities and levels of capacity to do certain things, but for me I wanted to create and I wanted to act in other people’s works. I still am balancing both of those things because when you’re in an acting contract it’s really hard to create while you’re working and there’s been so many times where I’ve been in shows and writing grants while I’m on break. I don’t do that as much anymore because I’m at a level of burned out that I wasn’t at before. So yeah, I think there is a number of different ways to sort of inch your way in to these different levels of whatever success means because it means different things to different people. If you’re just performing it’s a constant onslaught of auditioning, auditioning and auditioning, where as you can audition and write, audition and write  and you know, I think there is room for both. But I also think I want to see more folks be interested in design and production, because I think there is so much that gets swept away or misunderstood about what those roles are and working with designers for the last few years, you know designers that I’ve brought in for as part of a collective, they’re storytellers, just as much as we are and their eye for lifting the story or telling the story in their own way is incredibly beautiful. So I think it’s important for folks to expand their ideas of what artistry is and try different things, because you don’t know what you’re going to love to do, until you try doing it.

Hope Yeah, that’s fabulous and I think so interesting like you said about the fracture, how we really divide and people feel they have to choose, right?

Yolanda Yeah.

Hope Yeah, wonderful. Thank you. Is there anything, when you think back to those early days of starting out, all of 5-6 years ago, is there anything you wish you had known at that time?

Yolanda You know, I actually wish…that’s a great question. I think I wish that I uncovered or discovered the ableism earlier, so that I could call it out earlier. I mean, for me at the time I thought I was doing what was required of me, which I was, but I pushed myself hard and in times that I didn’t need to. I also wish that I’d known that I don’t have to perform trauma on stage. Because, as you know, Crackwalker, it was my first big gig, and it propelled my career in many ways and I worked with some incredible people, but it was really difficult to do that show and that character and every night my body would respond because it thought I was experiencing that trauma every night and that wasn’t healthy for me. And every night I was triggered because I grew up in a very violent household and so the domestic violence scene was like quite difficult for me to sit through every night. I just wish that I’d had known I didn’t have to do all of that and I could have said no. Or I could have asked for something different in the room. I think, yeah, that’s it. I wish I’d known I could ask for what I want.

Hope That’s great. I think, yeah, so important when students come out. The stories I’ve heard is they often will just agree to whatever because they just want it so badly.

Yolanda Well and because that’s what they are told to do. You know, in school we are all told that you have to say yes, say yes and don’t talk back, and be professional and be grateful that you’re there and, and a lot of that is true, a lot of that is true. I mean, I think that there are some places that if I’d asked for the things that I had wanted or felt like I wanted at the time, I probably would have just got fired, or not given the part. And I think that is just an actual reality to sit with, but in this day and age that if I had a request, an accessibility request for an institution and they turned it down, or didn’t hire me because of it, the amount of onslaught that would come to that company, because I would say something publicly. People are not as scared to call institutions out now and they shouldn’t be, I think they need to be called out. We’ve seen fractions of changes happen because of it, little, not enough, but some. And it can be tricky because we are told you won’t get hired. And that is sometimes the case, but it’s not always the case. More often than not, folks are willing to come talk with you and negotiate with you, but you have to be the one to bring it to them first at this point. Like, until institutions are saying I’d love to work with you, let’s negotiate your contract, I’m not going to trust them, right? But that’s not what happens right now. Yeah, I think don’t be afraid to ask for what you want.

Hope That’s great. And is there anything else, like I’ll get to the next question which is about the biggest gap that you notice in knowledge of emerging artists that you’ve worked with or collaborated with, that is certainly one of them, right? Not being afraid to ask for what they need or want. Is there anything else that you’d say is a gap that you have noticed?

Yolanda Oh yeah, the big lie is that you’re a happy working actor and everything is fine. Or that when you work at Stratford it’s great if you get a season. But there are things that they don’t tell you, like you might not get asked back for the next season or you’re working three shows at once where you actually have no time for a life. I think conservatory style theatre programs do set you up for the expectation of reality of working 6 days a week / 8 hour days. It’s tricky because the gap is in the learning institutions and the theatres themselves, it’s the both of them, and the relationship that they have, because the schools are breeding actors to be a part of that institution and that way of working instead of focusing on the training rather than the rigour. Focus on the technique and the training and the story telling and the creation and the movements and the relationality of theatre and the design of it; as opposed to if you’re not working 8 hours a day, if you’re not doing this, if you’re not putting your entire self into this, then it’s not good, it’s not worth it. The only reason people are doing that is because of capitalism. This is the gap that I’m thinking of – is all in that. Right? It’s in how we disseminate information. Because then what happens is they get out into the industry and they either don’t get work at all or they do get work, and they’re overworked and burned out. They realize oh my gosh, this is not sustainable. Or, oh my gosh they don’t have the place for me here because I’m racialized or I’m fat or I’m queer or I’m non-binary. You know, they make it look very inclusive, but it’s not. And often, when I’m teaching, I taught at Sheridan for the last couple of years, and one of the things I bring up all of the time is with my racialized students is to expect to be tokenized. So like you’re going to be tokenized, you’re going to be traumatized. It’s not a question of if, it’s when it happens. These are things you can do. Because institutionalized racism is embedded in all of these theatres. So, I think it’s just the reality is the big gap.  The information that’s missing is the reality of the situation and what is possible, as opposed to what they are saying is necessary.

Hope Yes, that’s amazing. And yes, rather than preparing them for the industry, it’s about allowing them to create the industry that they want. Right?

Yolanda Yes, absolutely. Yes. And there are so many of us out here that are trying to re-imagine what this industry can look like. And I have boatloads of privilege when it comes to that, because I’ve made this career for myself and I’m in a position where I can come into an institution and make demands and they are not always met and I do get pushback still, right? But I have the privilege of saying well I’m going to walk with my play because I don’t need you, and I can do this either on my own or some other institution wants it. Because I have all of those skills that you have, I have all of your skills. What you don’t have are my skills, and my work or me. So actually, you know, you need me probably more than I need you at this point.  So, I have that privilege to say… But in a lot of ways, a lot of performers, particularly racialized performers have that leverage as well, to say you actually need me, you need my voices, you need my stories. Don’t act like you’re giving me some big favour.

Hope I love that. That is so amazing and do you think, because the next question is about how universities can better prepare theatre workers or artists as part of the training, is that part of it? About making them understand that they have that power?

Yolanda I think so, yeah. I think definitely making them understand that they have that power, but also that there is a power imbalance. So, you have all that power, you can come with that power, and that is actual lived experience power, but the technical power is in the hands of the institution, because they are hiring you. So, even when I look at like, when I work and I am bringing people in to… if I’m hiring people or bringing them in to a space, I can dismantle the hierarchy of power all I want in that room. I can say, we are all here, we all have equal contributions, but at the end of the day, I’m the one who’s either paying them or that people are looking to as a holder of the space. So like there’s always going to be some kind of imbalance in terms of power if someone is paying somebody else. That is always going to sort of be there. And in that same way, when it comes to like institutional racism, the white leaders are holding all of that power in the institution but also in the world so that’s doubled things. But if it’s a racialized leader they’re holding power in one way and not another. So, there’s always different levels and ways of looking at it, where it’s so complex, it’s not as easy as just being like, you know, I can come with this, and you can come with that and let’s see. But I do think, yes, they need to know they have this power but they also need to know the reality of how that power works out there. And, just that it’s hard. It’s really hard. No artist out here is saying that it’s an easy experience. And I think … here is the big thing, be careful not to make it your entire identity. And that’s very easy to do, particularly if you’re coming from a trauma informed background. It’s very easy to get lost in art, because it is a safe place and that just speaks to all the work we have to do in terms of healing ourselves. But it’s really easy to make it your entire identity and it’s really easy to get lost in it, until it’s, until one day you realize-  well I guess for me I’m just speaking personally – I looked up and realized I had no personal goals. Or I had no personal goals that I was trying to hit. It was all just, what’s my next career move. And that was a huge awakening for me, to go, oh, I actually have to work on… This is just one aspect of my life, this is not my entire identity. In some ways, as a storyteller, as my role as an Anishinaabe person, as a storyteller, it is a part of my identity, storyteller, healer. But that doesn’t mean my entire days have to be wrapped up in theatre and art. And I think that it’s important for everyone to have personal and career separate. And again, that’s not something that’s told in schools, because your whole existence is theatre when you’re in school. Your entire existence is theatre. And when you’re in a show, it’s the same thing. Cause if you’re there, if you’re working 6 days, 8 hours a day, that’s the majority of your time, right? Where as I try to work 5-6 hours a day, 5 days a week, so that people have time to go be human. But when you’re consumed with it all the time, it’s really hard to see outside of that.

Hope That’s amazing, yeah. I think everything you said is so important, but yeah, the number one thing I’ve heard from those we’re training is how do I get a job, how do I get the work, how do I book the gig? So, any thoughts on how to secure work or what they need in place?

Yolanda I wish I knew. Here’s the thing, securing work, honestly, I got to be honest, is kind of a crapshoot sometimes. Like, I think you can be as prepared as possible. Have all your monologues ready, have a monologue pulled out at the drop of a hat. I think those are important things. Brush up on your training, always make sure you’re sort of ready to go. Because sometimes these auditions happen really quickly. These are things I’ve lost track of – I am warming up my voice every day and stretching my body every day –  those are things I do when I’m working but forget to do when I’m not working. (laugh) And I say that, to be in a state of readiness, because you don’t actually know when your next job is going to be. So, always, I think, be in state and constantly try to be learning because the more you learn, the more you practise or read plays out loud or do workshops, workshops are… workshops, developments, get in those rooms, get in workshop rooms, because those are one of the best ways to get roles, because people see you working and developing a role and then you get to see how that process works as well. So, I think, looking at development festivals and submitting to those and reaching out to institutions. Don’t be scared to send an email to an artistic director or an artistic associate. Just say hi, my name is this, and I am just graduating and here is my headshot, this is my resume, this is what I’m interested in. I think more or less, this is what I’m interested in. What are you wanting to say with your work, what is your perspective as an actor, what do you want to gain as an actor, as a performer from working with this company. I think there is this big us, like as a student or as an emerging artist there’s an us versus them type of thing, but we’re all artists. We all want to help each other, so don’t be scared to reach out to people, because that will get you into rooms. So, I think that’s a big thing. Securing work is a tricky thing because you can submit for general auditions and you might not get a call or you might get a call. I am really bad at auditioning actually.  It’s hard, you know. The best auditions I did were when I acted as if I didn’t care, because then the pressure was off. So keep putting your name out there. I think that’s another important thing, even if you’re applying for like micro-grants or grants too, like, the more people see your name, the more they remember your name. Meet people, go out and meet people. Go to opening nights if you can, go to artist / community, any community events that people are hosting, that institutions are hosting. Theatres, especially indie theatres, have community events where you can come and meet people. Theatre Passe Muraille is really good for stuff like that and any time you can get your foot in the door is a way to get people to know who you are. And when people know who you are, the more they are likely to want to work with you. Also, if you are in a show, invite as many people as you want to work with as possible. That is directors, writers… because like I say, if you get in a workshop room, that’s great. Workshop rooms are really good places to start. So, if you invite playwrights to your work, they… I’m always looking for people to cast in my workshops, so like it’s a good way. If you are in anything, invite as many people as you can to come, because then they can see what you can do. Do it while they’re in school, you know?

Hope Yes, that’s great. And when you said that you’re looking for people often for your workshops or developments, can you talk a little bit about what it is that you look for in a collaborator. Or if you try to bring actors into a room what are some of the things that make them people you want to be part of your projects.

Yolanda I’m always looking for someone who, or folks who can look past just the surface of text and really find rhythm. When I’m writing, a lot of my work is in a rhythm and so I love when people can find that rhythm and talk about it or work within it. I’m always looking for people who are able to be not just… who can work with poetry and metaphor as well as dialogue, because sometimes they’re non-interchangeable. I’ve worked with actors who look at poetic text and aren’t sure how to lift it in the same way as dialogue. Which is fair, because if you don’t do that work often then that’s not something you’re familiar with. When we were trained, we worked with poetry a lot and so we did a whole poetry project in third year. It was helpful for me as an actor in other people’s work, but also when I was writing and looking for my own performers. How are they engaging with the poetry of the text? And then, how are you in relationality – do we vibe, do we click, are your values the same, are they similar in terms of how you want to work in the world and in the industry, whose voices are you uplifting, what work are you doing politically? Because for me, as a political… as artist-activist-abolitionist, politics just play a big part of my work. So, if I’m working with someone whose politics don’t align with mine, that’s not going to work for me, right, and that feels sort of critical. Every artist is different and looks for different things, but I think I most want people to bring their authentic self, their truest self, their truest voice, their authentic voice from their perspective and their lived experience. That honest, sort of vulnerable, raw place is where relationship building starts. It’s not where story building starts, it’s where relationships start, and then story gets built on top of that, collaboratively.

Hope Amazing. That’s so great and I think we often forget about that, those pieces of it. Are there any other resources that you’d recommend or advice that you want to give to the students leaving the program or an emerging artist?

Yolanda Get into festivals. Festivals are a big one. Work with people that you like working with. If they are people you go to school with that you click and you collaborate well with, work with them. Continue to work with them. Because those relationships can be hard to find without having to build on them, you know? If you have someone, or if you have a cohort or a collective, people that you want to work with, keep working with them. And yes, get into festivals, paprika festival is huge, it’s a great way in. There are so many different streams you can work within and so many different people you work with. Any developmental festivals. If you’re an Indigenous artist, the Weesageechak Festival is really great to apply for. Rhubarb, of course, Fringe is big, and those are big ones, I guess if you’re a creator. As a performer again, I’d say right away, just volunteer. Get into those theatres, start seeing things, start meeting people, come to shows, introduce yourself, send those emails. It’s a good way to start and then you’ll figure out your path from there because everyone’s path is different and you might start something and stumble and it might not work for you, then try something else, but you will find it – or you won’t.

Hope Excellent, and in terms of the tools we often talk about an actor needing, like you mentioned monologues for auditions, headshots, resumes;… Any thoughts or any advice around those tools?

Yolanda If you have the means to continue training with people, I think that’s a good thing. Take a voice class every once in a while, or a movement class. Expand on the things that you aren’t familiar with. Learn a new skill. Skills are always good to have and are good to hold. I think, movement is a big one, because often actors get caught in their heads and forget their bodies and leave their bodies behind. And I know that some institutions aren’t very body based and breath based, school institutions I mean. And so I think try to find people that you can work with that can help you with those sorts of things or things you might struggle with, that you struggled with in school. Find support for those things if you want, if you feel like that’s something you need. I think it’s just good to be as diverse as possible when it comes to skills and body / breath / voice which are the big things, right, and so I think in terms of tools those are the biggest ones. And I will continue to say learn how to write grants, because you might have to support yourself if you want to create your own work. Really look at… the biggest one I could say are OAC Recommender Grants, those are a really great way of getting your name out there, and they are micro grants and it’s a good place to start somewhere. But, you know, taking producing courses or grant writing classes or things like that, or just asking someone if they can give you some time to chat with them. Because those are tools and skills that are really good for anything that you might need moving forward.

Hope Amazing, yeah. I’ wondering if you have any thoughts around CAEA? A lot of our students ask should I join? When should I join? And whether that is the right fit for them, ever.

Yolanda Totally. My advice is don’t join until you have to, because otherwise you’re just paying fees for really no reason. I didn’t become Equity until I started at Stratford. I didn’t do it until my contract required me to because I didn’t know when my next gig was going to be. It’s good to have when you’re in a show, because it protects you while you’re in that show. You can still get work without being Equity, and there are still protections for you, even if you’re not a union worker. There are really great things about it, if you’re consistently getting Equity contracts, it is helpful because you can get massages or these things while you’re on contract and you can write a claim form and get money back. There are those types of things, which you can’t do if you’re not Equity. So there are benefits that come with it if you’re working a lot, but if you’re, you know, jumping around a little bit, you’re not sure and it’s still early days, I think just wait until the contract requires you to. Or if you’re finding you’re getting a lot of contracts, maybe it’s time to become an Equity member. But it’s really a personal decision. For me, I just didn’t see the point until I needed to.

Hope Yeah, that makes sense. And then just on the self-employed, self-producing side of things. I think you’ve talked a lot about some of the challenges of managing your own career, and certainly the grant needs and the networking needs, do you feel self producing is a good way for emerging artists to go?Often they’ll be like I’m going to do the Fringe as a way to just get some visibility?

Yolanda Yeah, yeah, yes I do. I only started producing out of necessity. I don’t like producing, it’s not my favourite thing to do. I don’t get much joy from it, but it is something I have to do if I, you know, want my own workshop funded, or need to put one of my own shows up or need to contribute towards the show. Yeah, I think it’s an important aspect in the industry right now – creating your own work. Particularly because a lot of casting around now-a-days is already… they’re already cast. People cast people they know as opposed to auditioning. So, it can be tricky because not everybody is auditioning. So, if you have any kind of inkling towards creation or that’s something that you want to do, definitely self-producing is something, a skill that needs… that should be learned and the first step of that is learning how to write a grant and talking to people who might help you with that. And then it’s about how to negotiate with people and speak with people and handling budgets. I would say, not to do it alone, that it’s better to have a collective or something, someone else who can help you. Because self producing by oneself is a lot of work and is really taxing and can be really difficult depending on how much of the producing that you’re doing. Because the grants and the finances are just one part of it, right? Like if you’re doing a full production then you’ve got to handle who is being hired, and what they are doing and how to disseminate all that money. You have to handle contracts. Producing is like a whole thing and it’s a lot of work and so it’s better to do it with other people than it is to do it by oneself. But, yeah, I think it’s a big skill to learn. I think the bigger things are grant writing. I think contracts are another big thing, learn how to read contracts. Look up the CTA and the ITA, those are big ones to know. Because contracts have coded language in them so often the contracts that come from institutions cite clauses in the CTA, which means you have to go all the way to another document to look up that information and if you are in any way, shape or form neuro-divergent or, you can’t ingest information the same way, there is no other option for you. Which is why negotiating is such a big thing… have a meeting with somebody – can you explain this to me, walk me through this step by step. Learning how to read a contract is a big one and then you will know how to write a contract. Same way, reading grants will help you write grants. Yeah, those are big ones.

Hope Absolutely. And is there a time when you feel it would be best for someone to say no to a gig or no to doing something? What are some of the things that emerging artists should look for as a sign that that’s not something you should take on?

Yolanda If you’re already overworked, is one thing. Is the main thing. Which nobody does. (laugh)
We all just keep taking more work because there is that scarcity mentality. There will always be another gig somewhere down the line. I think… just not at the detriment of your health. It’s not worth it, nothing is worth your mental and physical health, spiritual health, emotional health, nothing, nothing is worth it. I mean listen to your gut. If your gut says maybe no, then say no. And I mean again, I say that from a position of privilege, not everybody has the ability to say no. Some people need that money, they need to say yes at the detriment of their health and I fully acknowledge that because that is a reality of this system and this industry. So, I can say nothing is worth it, but I also understand that is not always the case. So, yeah, I’ll say no if there’s too much on the plate already, if I feel like I’m being tokenized, if it’s traumatic on stage or trauma informed in any way, I won’t do it. I was commissioned one time to write a TYA play and I was asked to write it about Missing and Missing Indigenous Women and Girls Two Spirits and I was like no. I am very uncomfortable that you asked me to write about this trauma, so I said no and I pulled out and it was a pretty big commission. I have my own morals and values and code that I stick by, I have my own non-negotiables, I encourage everyone to figure out what they are for themselves. What are your non-negotiables, what are the things you have to have in a space, that you need to say yes. What are the things that you’re willing to compromise on and what are you willing to, yeah, give up or sacrifice? Because, if I’m going into a project, if I need the money for instance, or if there’s a project that… the play seems like really fun or there’s somebody I want to work with or whatever reason there is, but you know you’re going to be traumatized in that situation. Find those coping mechanisms, find those ways of bracing yourself, of putting your armour on, before you go into that situation knowing that something is going to happen. Be prepared and braced for it. Because sometimes we can’t say no, sometimes we have to say yes. And so, we just have to know what we’re saying yes to and figure out… information is power, right, knowledge is power. Find out as much as you can about what’s going to happen in that room, who is in that room what’s going on in that space; before you say yes, so that you’re better prepared for it. But yeah, I think finding your own code, and morals and values to live by and asking yourself what are the things that make me uncomfortable, that I would say no to for whatever reason.

Hope Incredible. I wish every student I have ever taught was hearing this right now, because that’s so important for them, right? Yeah, yeah. And the last thing is just any thoughts on the future, the future of theatre., What should we be working towards, what trends, changes you’d love to see,  anything else that you want to share?

Yolanda Oh, so much. We need to get rid of two show days. Two show days do not need to exist for any reason. It’s not necessary, it’s harmful. I think I want to see less ableism, less racism, you know, I want to see more sustainable ways of telling story, I want to see longer development time, less programming, more development, more investment in artists and their practices and who they are as artists as opposed to seeing them as actors they can churn out. I want to see a community-based way of telling stories that is still sustainable to live. I want to see us all being able to make a living wage while not having to harm ourselves physically, because we should all still be able to want to do these things and not have to go to film and television, and not have to work ten out of twelves or eight hour days or six days a week and not have any time to have relationships or be a person or human. Some people that works fine for, some folks love it. They love the theatre, the Olympics of theatre, they love it. They want it, they thrive on it, and that is great. That is good for them, awesome. That is one way of doing it. But right now, that feels like the only way and there are other ways. And we need to look at disability justice in theatre, because there are so many disabled artists that want to be able to tell stories in a beautiful way but are not given the opportunity or platform. Because venues are not accessible, because seats are too small, because there is no mask mandate, because they want a raked stage, because, you know, this, that… there’s so many reasons why. There are so many barriers to accessible theatre, and it just needs to change because the world is changing. The landscape is changing. Those patrons are great. Good. Thank you for your money. But honestly, I don’t want to tell your story anymore Mildred. There needs to be shifts in leadership and there needs to be shifts in boards. And I actually think there needs to be a dissolution of boards, but that’s a whole other thing. I think boards need to dissolve and theatres need to be in charge of themselves and actual artists need to be running the institutions as opposed to financial people.

Hope Incredible. It’s like a manifesto. I love it.

Yolanda: It’s just like I got here and I looked around, I was like this is great.  And then I looked around and was like, this is not so great.  I didn’t last very long before I turned around and was like I don’t know what’s going on here, but…

Hope Yeah, but the wonderful thing is that’s where I find my optimism is in some of these young folks. They’ve been brought up where they’ve been told that they have a right to speak up, and so that gives me some optimism that all those things you just said are possible.

Yolanda Totally, I think it’s ridiculous that we look at the world, we look at this picture and you know, for so many of us who are already coming from trauma and now we’re in a global pandemic where we have this shared trauma, and life is hard and surviving in and out of itself is difficult and then… And art and creation is meant to be an escape. But then you put people back in the same position that we’re trying to get away from. Why did I leave my job at a call centre to come here to be harmed, in the same ways. Like, it just, it doesn’t make any sense. And so, I just want storytelling to be removed from the hands of capitalism and put back into the hands of storytellers.