Learning Objectives

• Podcast Metrics Explained
• Making Podcast Income
• Careers, Jobs, and Pay

Chapter 10: Audience, Income, Jobs

First, let’s ask the question: Do you really need to know how many people are listening to your podcast?

If it’s a hobby it’s nice to know – but the number of listeners is just one metric of success. It can be equally as important to reach a small but active group of engaged listeners.

However, if you want to impress a boss, a client, or have paid ads you do need to pay attention to the number of listeners.

While only a podcast publisher knows the actual number of listeners and downloads, there are a variety of chart rankers, metrics in podcast apps, and ratings and review services to evaluate podcast listening. You can also pay for data assembled by companies like Rephonic.

But, avoid just looking at downloads as a measure of success because a download doesn’t mean the episode was listened to.

As James Cridland, editor of Podnews explains, a show with 4,000 downloads doesn’t mean there were 4,000 listeners because with automatic downloads the episode may never have been listened to. Only a listen, or play indicates when a human has pushed the play button.

In addition, a small, niche show might not have large numbers but can bring in a very engaged audience who spends a lot of time listening and that is of great value to a podcaster as well as advertisers. Still, a show with fewer than 1,000 per episode is hard to monetize.

Finding Your Podcast Metric

Apple Podcasts has an average consumer metric in which podcasters can see how much time and attention their podcasts are getting by looking at their analytics. To find the numbers for your podcast log into your Apple Podcast Connect account, go to Analytics, pick an episode and look for the graph that shows listeners over time. Spotify calls this metric “episode performance.”

Beyond downloads, success for a podcast can be measured in other significant ways:

• Serving underserved populations.
• Influence (a podcast could have a small number of listeners but they have a large influence).
• Amount of ad revenue.
• Reviews & Critiques (can help in marketing and promotion efforts).
• Engagement (includes getting listeners to take action or time spent listening).

Metrics Are Confusing

Every podcast hosting service has its own analytics, research companies have their own podcast rankers and podcast companies have their own charts so there can be considerable differences because of methodology and whether the podcast was downloaded, played or streamed.

Podcast analyst Nick Quah told The Verge that, “chart-topping doesn’t mean what most people think it means.… It just says you had a lot of new interactions one given week.”

It’s also difficult to compare audience size when some podcast rankers emphasize monthly downloads while others focus on weekly audience size.

Can You Make Money With Podcasts?

Podcasts do make money — very big money for a select few and absolutely nothing for most creators. That’s absolutely fine if your podcast is a hobby and a labor of love, but there are some ways to make a few bucks for production expenses.

Ad experts say the future for podcast advertising will involve several different models  – ad-free, subscription-based, crowdfunding and paywalls.

The position of an ad – when it appears – also impacts price. A pre-roll runs at the beginning of a podcast, a mid-roll occurs during an episode and a post-roll is at the end of an episode and has the least expensive price.

Podcast Advertising Sees Growth & Influence

Although U.S. podcast ad revenue slowed in 2023, the year ended with increases of 5% to $1.9 billion, according to the Interactive Advertising Bureau (IAB), and is projected to have a growth rate of +12% this year to more than $2 billion and approaching $2.6 billion by 2026.

A study by media intelligence company MAGNA and Spotify found that consumers are more receptive to podcast advertising than TV advertising. As for the length of podcast ads, SXM Media says their research found that 15-second ads (which are usually found just before and just after a podcast) are very effective for recall and awareness while longer 30-second or 60-seconds ads are more effective in driving understanding and moving listeners to act.

Most effective are host-read ads because listeners consider hosts to be influencers. “The reason they’ve been successful is their deep connection to listeners,” marketing executive David Raphael told Vulture magazine. He says one focus group asked listeners why they went to hotels.com. “They said, ‘Because Ira Glass told me to.’

Building Revenue

Donation Model

Patreon.com is a website where fans can pay creators with contributions of their choice. In 2023 podcasters earned more than $350 million dollars in revenue on the platform. Since a YouTube musician came up with the idea in 2013, some 150,000 creators have earned over $1 billion for creators from podcasts to musicians, gamers and more.

Patreon takes a percentage of the earning and offers a guide on your earning potential. Resonate Recordings has some advice for setting up a Patreon account.

You can see the top 1000 Patreon creators each month.

Independent podcasters such as Tamar Avishai, creator of The Lonely Palette, say it’s time to get over asking for money. She explained how to get the most out of Patreon in her article in The Bello Collective. With 175 patrons who donate various amounts, she makes $1,000+ per episode. Other independents say don’t expect to make a lot of money but there are other rewards of podcasting, such as redirecting your career because of new skills.

Grants for Podcasters

Another option for funding an independent podcast is to seek out a grant, look for accelerator programs, or fellowships.

A grant is a funding award made to a person or organization to fund a project that is not paid back. There is a competitive application process with specific requirements like creating a budget and demonstrating need, a projected timeline, and deadlines as well as applying for a certain grant amount.

To find funding sources look online, at private foundations, at government agencies especially at the local level like arts organizations. In my home base of Washington, DC grant funding is available from Humanities DC to fund history, culture, relationships, and topics that shape the community. There are similar organizations elsewhere.

Careers in Podcasting

Since podcasts are being done by large and small news organizations from traditional legacy media such as The Washington Post, NPR, national TV and radio news outlets as well as hometown digital news outlets, there are growing career opportunities. But that’s just the start.

Creators include major corporations, smaller entrepreneurs, local, state and federal government, religious organizations, political organizations, public interest groups, sports franchises, entertainers, book authors, and educational institutions — you name it.

All of these organizations need to hire hosts, reporters, producers, scriptwriters, artists, marketers, and sound engineers. Some people can do it all or know how to outsource and hire others. You might find such an opportunity.

TO FIND A PODCAST JOB

NEWSLETTERS: Subscribe to industry newsletters such as Podnews by James Cridland for podjobs.net and Hot Pod by Nick Quah. Look carefully at job descriptions in ads and make sure to develop these skill sets.

TOP PUBLISHERS: Look at podcast rankers for top publishers and contact those outlets, Edison also has one.

AUDIO JOURNALISM PROFESSIONAL & TRADE PUBLICATIONS AND OUTLETS: 

• Corporation for Public Broadcasting Jobline.
• Indeed.com, look under Journalism.
• Journalismjobs.com.
• JournalismNext.com.
• Mediabistro.com.

PAID MEMBERSHIP ORGANIZATIONS:

• AIRmedia.org is a network of audio industry professionals in public broadcasting, journalism, podcasting and narrative storytelling; jobs and training are available via membership with discounts for students.
• National Association of Asian Journalists is a professional organization with reduced fees for students.
• National Association of Black Journalists is a professional organization with reduced fees for students.
• National Association of Hispanic Journalists is a professional organization with reduced fees for students.
• National Association of LBGTQ+ Journalists is a professional organization with reduced fees for students.
• RTDNA.com (Radio-Television Digital News Association) is a professional organization with reduced fees for students.
• Online News Association is a professional organization of digital media professionals.
• Professional Journalism Organizations – an extensive list from the American Media Institute.  Several offer job opportunities with paid memberships.

INTERNSHIPS: Spotify Internships, Ask local radio stations, look online for podcast production companies such as LWC Studios, colleges & universities.

SOCIAL MEDIA: In your own community, look for freelancers on a Facebook group of local podcasters.

Podcast Job Titles

Job titles are determined by the employer and by the style of storytelling — nonfiction vs fiction or narratives, dramas, interviews, and such. Someone with the job title of producer in one workplace may be called a story editor elsewhere and it’s not uncommon for one or two people to do multiple jobs. That can be fulfilling or frustrating depending upon your workload.

To professionalize the industry a coalition of about 40 partners in the podcasting industry developed descriptions and published in Podcast Taxonomy. This is an effort to develop standardized roles and help in job search and creation.

What Does a Producer Do?

Typically the producer oversees the management of a show from concept to writing scripts, scheduling guests, doing interviews, and hiring any contractors needed for editing, distribution, or promotion but the job duties can differ widely depending upon the size of the employer and style of the podcast.

What Does An Editor Do?

An editor could be involved in story structure or editing audio or both.

Catherine St. Louis is senior editor of podcasts at Neon Hum. In episode 10 of “Servant of Pod with Nick Quah,” she talks about creating memorable podcast moments, how she became a story editor and her love of deconstructing story structure., “I think a good podcast does three things – it educates, it enrages, it entertains,” she said.

St. Louis says part of the problem is that most people don’t understand what it means to be an editor. She says editors are made and that diversity is vital. “I wish we took more young people of color, women, and guided them so that they became editors. …I think we have to demystify that editors are somebody who are older or who are established.”

St. Louis also talks about how she approaches being a story editor on podcasts such as This Land by Crooked Media and Murder on the Towpath by Luminary — both are longer form, narrative non-fiction podcasts that have different storytelling techniques than audio dramas or interview podcasts.

Mentoring & Early Career Opportunities

What’s the Income for Top Podcasters?

Although it’s hard to know revenue unless it’s self-reported, top podcasts like The New York Times’ The Daily, earn more than $1 million in revenue.

Freelance Work Rates

It’s a valid question whether you can turn your passion project podcast into a paid professional gig. Salaries for podcast jobs as producers, editors, production assistants, writers, and website creators fluctuate depending upon the employer, show format, and market location.

Salaries vary depending upon whether you are on staff for a media company or as a freelancer. Some companies pay by the hour, others by the day or project. You also need to pay close attention to job titles because what one employer calls a production assistant job might be labeled as an associate producer job at another, so be sure you are clear on defining the role.

Managers and hosts earn the most according to a survey by ZipRecruiter, which offers a free tool to type in the name of a city to find average salaries.

Freelancers will find one particularly helpful resource in AIR – the Association of Independents in Radio. This network of audio industry professionals – podcasters, journalists, story editors, audio producers, documentarians, engineers, sound designers and media entrepreneurs crosses 47 states and 30 countries. They publish a Code of Fair Practices for working with audio professionals as well as AIR Rate Guides for services. A beginning production assistant could have a day rate of $330 while a senior producer’s day rate could be $570.

In his newsletter, The Audio Insurgent, podcast creator and strategist Eric Nuzum says the most important thing for podcast creators is “knowing how to build a production budget.” He offers sage advice on people costs for creating production budgets with staff and collaborators and on additional costs like hiring freelancers and marketing.