Learning Objectives

• Podcast Metrics Explained
• Making Podcast Income
• Careers, Jobs, and Pay

Chapter 10: Audience, Income, Jobs

How Many Listeners/Viewers?

First, let’s ask the question: Do you really need to know how many people are listening to your podcast?

If it’s a hobby it’s nice to know – but the number of listeners is just one metric of success. It can be equally as important to reach a small but active group of engaged listeners – to measure time spent listening to a podcast.

Beware of download numbers as they are misleading, even though they remain a key metric in the podcast industry especially when it comes to monetization. They only measure what was delivered, not consumed (watched or listened to) and they don’t tell you for how long or when. Most downloads, in fact, do not reach people’s eyes and ears. However, if you want to impress a boss, a client, or have paid ads you do need to pay attention to the number of listeners.

How Do Podcast Charts Work?

In podcasting there is no single “Billboard” chart like in the music industry, where songs and artists are ranked and called “chart toppers.”

Instead, there are numerous different charts that don’t measure the same thing, so it’s complex and ripe for confusion. While only a podcast publisher knows the actual number of listeners and downloads, there are a variety of chart rankers, metrics in podcast apps, and ratings and review services to evaluate podcast listening. You can also pay for data assembled by companies like Rephonic.

Here’s a look at how the various podcast charts work.

Apple Podcasts

In Apple Podcasts you can see categories such as the ‘Top Shows,’ or ‘Episodes,’ and ‘Top Subscriber Shows’ and ‘Top Subscriber Channels.’

Keep in mind the charts only measure those consuming podcasts within the Apple Podcasts app, not those listening on any other podcast directory or on the web, so it’s only a snippet of listening. The Apple chart reflects popularity or “hotness” at the time of listening, meaning the number of new followers and listeners, and is not based on downloads. There are separate charts in Apple Podcasts for each country.

Apple picks their own choice of podcasts for the New and Noteworthy charts within Apple Podcasts and has a newer category of narrative shows that are intended to be listened to in order, called Top Series chart.

Within Apple Podcasts Connect are more granular reports for channels that offer paid subscriptions only, but they now include a unique count of listeners per channel.

Apple Podcast Analytics

To find the numbers for your podcast, log into your Apple Podcast Connect account, go to Analytics, pick an episode and look for the graph that shows listeners over time. Spotify calls this metric “episode performance. You will see displayed for the past 60 days:

 

• Number of followers (total number of people following your show).
• Number of listeners (total number of people that listened to your show).
• Engaged listeners (total number of people who listened for at least 20 minutes or 40% of your show).
• Plays (total number of times pressed play on your episode. Caution – counts every time you hit the play button so if you take a break and return to play again it will record another play. This means your show could have few overall listeners but a high number of plays.
• Top countries/regions (unique devices per country/region)
• Top cities (total number of devices per city)

Podcast growth agency, Bumper, shows how to combine audio and video podcast data from different sources.

Spotify Charts

Spotify updates its own Podcast Charts daily and again – they only measure consumption on the Spotify platform. They measure the most popular shows each day based on “unique streams” – which is a listen longer than 60 seconds. If you listen multiple times in a day it still counts as one play.

Spotify’s “Trending Chart” shows is based upon streams and follows – those showing big audience increases and reflect rising stars and topics getting people talking at the moment. You can also see charts for genres and by country.

YouTube Podcasts

YouTube podcasts attract more than 1 billion active viewers, according to Edison Research.

But, don’t expect to see YouTube stat’s on your podcasting host site. The YouTube Top Podcast Chart measures the top 100 podcasts for weekly consumption in the U.S. only, and only on the YouTube platform.  Updated each Wednesday, they use total listen time – so a long multi-hour show listened to by one person will appear higher than shorter-length shows listened to by multiple people.

YouTube categories are arranged by topic – money, business, football, popular, Spanish, and live now, among others. More on how the stats work from James Cridland in Podnews.

Chart-Topping Hosting Service & Rankers

But wait, there’s more.

Every podcast hosting service has its own analytics, research companies have their own podcast rankers and podcast companies have their own charts so there can be considerable differences because of methodology and whether the podcast was downloaded, played or streamed.

Podcast analyst Nick Quah told The Verge that, “chart-topping doesn’t mean what most people think it means.… It just says you had a lot of new interactions one given week.” It’s also difficult to compare audience size when some podcast rankers emphasize monthly downloads while others focus on weekly audience size.

PODCAST RANKERS

1) Among companies that do podcast rankings, Podtrac offers monthly rankings of downloads for Top 20 Podcasts and Top 20 Podcast Publishers. There are also monthly rankers for 30 different countries based on downloads.

However, the rankings only count podcasts that chose to “opt-in” to the service; not all podcasts do that. Podtrac says the company measures the majority of top podcast publishers. For a fee, you can see Podtrac rankings on audience categories – such as Arts, Sports or True Crime.

2) Edison Podcast Metrics is the only quarterly podcast measurement service that measures the relative audience size and demographics of all podcast networks in the U.S. Data is collected from podcast consumers ages 13 and older in the U.S., asking participants to recall which podcasts they listened to in the past week.

It lists the top 50 podcasts in America by reach — not downloads — among weekly podcast consumers. Reach is the percentage of weekly podcast listeners who say they have listened to any one of these shows in the last week.

3) Triton Digital offers audience measurement by country or region and based on weekly downloads over a four-week period. 

The U.S. Podcast Ranker now includes all publishers, even if they don’ t use Triton’s quarterly listener-based rankings, thus broadening visibility of shows beyond existing partners. The ranker “will list the top 200 podcasts based on listener responses to questions about which shows they have listened to or watched, including video podcasts from platforms like YouTube.” It will also give audience profiles. 

 

4) Podscribe has “Top Podcasts” and publisher and advertising rankings based upon estimated monthly listeners. It’s only for the U.S. This ranker tracks podcast downloads, YouTube views, Spotify Video, and more.

Companies that have earned the “seal of approval” for podcast measurement systems, verified by IAB Tech Lab, give an added measure of confidence for publishers and advertisers about the accuracy of audience counts.

• How To Understand Podcast Stats (James Cridland, Podnews)
• What Do Chart-Topping Podcasts Have In Common? (Rephonic)
• 4 Metrics For Podcast Advertisers (Kat Shereko, Portent Marketing)

What is Download Success For A Podcast?

Downloads have been a traditional way to evaluate success but they are not necessarily the best or only measurement tool that should be used. Certainly, for ad sales they are easy to count and have been used as a common measure, helped by a compliance program for download measurement by the IAB (Interactive Advertising Bureau).

Can You Make Money With Podcasts?

Podcasts do make money — very big money for a select few and absolutely nothing for most creators. That’s absolutely fine if your podcast is a hobby and a labor of love, but there are some ways to make a few bucks for production expenses.

Ad experts say the future for podcast advertising will involve several different models  – ad-free, subscription-based, crowdfunding and paywalls.

A study by media intelligence company MAGNA and Spotify found that consumers are more receptive to podcast advertising than TV advertising. As for the length of podcast ads, SXM Media says their research found that 15-second ads (which are usually found just before and just after a podcast) are very effective for recall and awareness while longer 30-second or 60-seconds ads are more effective in driving understanding and moving listeners to act.

Most effective are host-read ads because listeners consider hosts to be influencers. “The reason they’ve been successful is their deep connection to listeners,” marketing executive David Raphael told Vulture magazine. He says one focus group asked listeners why they went to hotels.com. “They said, ‘Because Ira Glass told me to.’

Building Revenue

Donation Models – Patreon & Substack

Podcast fans can pay creators directly with contribution levels of their choice on subscription platforms such as Patreon and its newer competitor, Substack. They take about a 10% cut from creators’ earnings. The attraction to podcasters focuses on their financial independence and control of intellectual property.

Podcasting is the highest-earning category on Patreon, earning over $472 million from over 6.7 million paid memberships in the last year alone. Since a YouTube musician came up with the idea in 2013, creators have earned over $1 billion for creators from podcasts to musicians, gamers and more.

Patreon takes a percentage of the earning and offers a guide on your earning potential. You can see the top 1000 Patreon creators each month.

The top earner on Patreon with 2025 subscription revenue expected to exceed $12 million dollars is Joe Budden, an ex-rapper who earns over one million dollars per month on Patreon.

The New York Times reports that 70,000 paid subscribers contribute $5 to $50 per month. Since most podcasters earn nowhere near that amount, Patreon chief executive Jack Conte told the Times, “Joe is in a league of his own.” Budden also earns several million dollars from advertising but went public about his Patreon account to make the broader point that creators can maintain control over their podcasts and stay independent.

CBS News correspondent David Pogue talked with podcasters and artists who earn income from subscribing patrons.

In 2025 Patreon added live streaming, which is a powerful way for creators to build and deepen community. Creators can go live in the Patreon mobile app or desktop and there are built-in live chat and emoji reactions as well as moderation tools to control bad actors. You can also share recordings with fans.

Patreon also has started an initiative with select Sony and Wondery shows.

Twitch A Podcasting Goldmine?

On Patreon, Lemonade Stand, a podcast on Business, Tech, and Politics is earning over $58K a month with more than 16,000 subscribers. The audience is 91% male and 60% Gen Z.

The show is on the live video streaming platform, Twitch, which started in the niche community of video gamers in 2011, and has expanded to feature all kinds of content, including podcasts. Like YouTube, you can watch content via the Twitch website or downloading the app, but it’s live content.

As Bloomberg’s Ashley Carman says, the future of podcasting could come from Twitch and success on the streaming platform – “one that is particularly popular with young video-game fans – could eventually prove to be a podcasting goldmine.”

Show Me the Money

In an interview with Business Insider, three podcasters revealed monthly income through Patreon – Therapy for Black Girls earned $2000; Wondery’s RedHanded earned $59,000; and The Yard earned a whopping $242,000 a month.

More common is the case of independent podcasters like Tamar Avishai, creator of The Lonely Palette, who says it’s time to get over asking for money. She explained how to get the most out of Patreon in her article in The Bello Collective. With 175 patrons who donate various amounts, she makes $1,000+ per episode. Other independents say don’t expect to make a lot of money but there are other rewards of podcasting, such as redirecting your career because of new skills.

Substack is another option for subscribers to follow their favorite creators and reward them. The new media app put together a $20 million fund to pull podcasters away from Patreon and others.

Spotify Partner Program

In 2025 Spotify began a program where creators “earn a 50% share of the revenue recognized every time an ad monetized by Spotify (as part of the Spotify Partner Program) plays in your episodes — both on and off Spotify.” Minimum requirements include having published at least 12 episodes and hit 10,000 consumption hours on Spotify in the last 30 days. The New York Times reports that Spotify has paid over one million dollars with a 40% increase in video consumption since the launch in January.

Grants for Podcasters

Another option for funding an independent podcast is to seek out a grant, look for accelerator programs, or fellowships.

A grant is a funding award made to a person or organization to fund a project that is not paid back. There is a competitive application process with specific requirements like creating a budget and demonstrating need, a projected timeline, and deadlines as well as applying for a certain grant amount.

To find funding sources look online, at private foundations, at government agencies especially at the local level like arts organizations. In my home base of Washington, DC grant funding is available from Humanities DC to fund history, culture, relationships, and topics that shape the community. There are similar organizations elsewhere.

Careers in Podcasting

Since podcasts are being done by large and small news organizations from traditional legacy media such as The Washington Post, NPR, national TV and radio news outlets as well as hometown digital news outlets, there are growing career opportunities. But that’s just the start.

Creators include major corporations, smaller entrepreneurs, local, state and federal government, religious organizations, political organizations, public interest groups, sports franchises, entertainers, book authors, and educational institutions — you name it.

All of these organizations need to hire hosts, reporters, producers, scriptwriters, artists, marketers, and sound engineers. Some people can do it all or know how to outsource and hire others. You might find such an opportunity.

At the same time, job-hunters needs to be realistic because of the number of layoffs in podcasting worldwide. Cuts were made by public radio, Amazon’s Wondery, iHeart Media, and Spotify, among others. A loss of advertising money is one reason, so creators are turning to subscriptions for direct audience support. There’s also the impact from artificial intelligence that is automating production – resulting in job loss, as well as company streamlining to cut costs.

TO FIND A PODCAST JOB

NEWSLETTERS: Subscribe to industry newsletters such as Podnews by James Cridland for podjobs.net and Hot Pod by Nick Quah. Look carefully at job descriptions in ads and make sure to develop these skill sets.

TOP PUBLISHERS: Look at podcast rankers for top publishers and contact those outlets, Edison also has one.

AUDIO JOURNALISM PROFESSIONAL & TRADE PUBLICATIONS AND OUTLETS: 

• Corporation for Public Broadcasting Jobline.
• Indeed.com, look under Journalism.
• Journalismjobs.com.
• JournalismNext.com.
• Mediabistro.com.

PAID MEMBERSHIP ORGANIZATIONS:

• AIRmedia.org is a network of audio industry professionals in public broadcasting, journalism, podcasting and narrative storytelling; jobs and training are available via membership with discounts for students.
• National Association of Asian Journalists is a professional organization with reduced fees for students.
• National Association of Black Journalists is a professional organization with reduced fees for students.
• National Association of Hispanic Journalists is a professional organization with reduced fees for students.
• National Association of LBGTQ+ Journalists is a professional organization with reduced fees for students.
• RTDNA.com (Radio-Television Digital News Association) is a professional organization with reduced fees for students.
• Online News Association is a professional organization of digital media professionals.
• Professional Journalism Organizations – an extensive list from the American Media Institute.  Several offer job opportunities with paid memberships.

INTERNSHIPS: Spotify Internships, Ask local radio stations, look online for podcast production companies such as LWC Studios, colleges & universities.

SOCIAL MEDIA: In your own community, look for freelancers on a Facebook group of local podcasters.

Podcast Job Titles

Job titles are determined by the employer and by the style of storytelling — nonfiction vs fiction or narratives, dramas, interviews, and such. Someone with the job title of producer in one workplace may be called a story editor elsewhere and it’s not uncommon for one or two people to do multiple jobs. That can be fulfilling or frustrating depending upon your workload.

To professionalize the industry a coalition of about 40 partners in the podcasting industry developed descriptions and published in Podcast Taxonomy. This is an effort to develop standardized roles and help in job search and creation.

What Does a Producer Do?

Typically the producer oversees the management of a show from concept to writing scripts, scheduling guests, doing interviews, and hiring any contractors needed for editing, distribution, or promotion but the job duties can differ widely depending upon the size of the employer and style of the podcast.

What Does An Editor Do?

An editor could be involved in story structure or editing audio or both.

Catherine St. Louis is senior editor of podcasts at Neon Hum. In episode 10 of “Servant of Pod with Nick Quah,” she talks about creating memorable podcast moments, how she became a story editor and her love of deconstructing story structure., “I think a good podcast does three things – it educates, it enrages, it entertains,” she said.

St. Louis says part of the problem is that most people don’t understand what it means to be an editor. She says editors are made and that diversity is vital. “I wish we took more young people of color, women, and guided them so that they became editors. …I think we have to demystify that editors are somebody who are older or who are established.”

St. Louis also talks about how she approaches being a story editor on podcasts such as This Land by Crooked Media and Murder on the Towpath by Luminary — both are longer form, narrative non-fiction podcasts that have different storytelling techniques than audio dramas or interview podcasts.

Mentoring & Early Career Opportunities

What’s the Income for Top Podcasters?

Although it’s hard to know revenue unless it’s self-reported, top podcasts like The New York Times’ The Daily, earn more than $1 million in revenue.

Freelance Work Rates

It’s a valid question whether you can turn your passion project podcast into a paid professional gig. Salaries for podcast jobs as producers, editors, production assistants, writers, and website creators fluctuate depending upon the employer, show format, and market location.

Salaries vary depending upon whether you are on staff for a media company or as a freelancer. Some companies pay by the hour, others by the day or project. You also need to pay close attention to job titles because what one employer calls a production assistant job might be labeled as an associate producer job at another, so be sure you are clear on defining the role.

Managers and hosts earn the most according to a survey by ZipRecruiter, which offers a free tool to type in the name of a city to find average salaries.

Freelancers will find one particularly helpful resource in AIR – the Association of Independents in Radio. This network of audio industry professionals – podcasters, journalists, story editors, audio producers, documentarians, engineers, sound designers and media entrepreneurs crosses 47 states and 30 countries. They publish a Code of Fair Practices for working with audio professionals as well as AIR Rate Guides for services. A beginning production assistant could have a day rate of $330 while a senior producer’s day rate could be $570.

In his newsletter, The Audio Insurgent, podcast creator and strategist Eric Nuzum says the most important thing for podcast creators is “knowing how to build a production budget.” He offers sage advice on people costs for creating production budgets with staff and collaborators and on additional costs like hiring freelancers and marketing.